feed wheat v oil price

[Ration-Al]

ianben

you said

"Just like a massive farmer then gaining a small premium while depressing the market for all with sales based on things we should be able to control but fail to do. "

It sounds contradictory. How does selling at a premium depress the market? Selling at a discount depresses the market. Selling below cost of production is a problem. Only farmers who are supported by large government subsidies are able to sell below cost of production and continue to farm indefinitely. I know you say that these subsidies simply flow through your hands. I would like to see some subsidies flow through my hands and pay my fuel, chemical and land payment bills. I would like to see government subsidies capitalized into land and inflate the value of my farm to the levels where I could sell out and retire to the mountains or to a tropical island. What is an acre of your land worth today ianben?

I have met your countrymen who have moved to Canada with millions of dollars from selling relatively small farms.

It is not my choice to sell wheat or any other grain below its energy value. I rather like the idea of equating food production to energy usage. When will the food consumers of the world be forced to fairly compensate farmers not only for energy consumption but also for my labor and my capital investment. I am sorry but right now the game does not work that way. Countries compete for market share, balance of trade, foreign exchange dollars etc. Each of those countries exposes their farmers to that reality through various government policies, trade agreements and political tradeoffs.

We can point to the Ukraine and Russia and call them the bad guys because they have not capitalized their land and their cost structure is almost non-existant. We can't compete with them. We can look at Brazil with their heavy international debt and low value currency. Their currency makes their soybeans very competitive. When it comes to soybeans they are the "bad" guys. Argentina has very low transportation costs just like you do ianben. They have tripled their soybean production over the last five years. Argentina has also had problems with their economy and have been tough competitors caring little for anything but the production of foreign exchange dollars. Stiff competitors or "bad" guys?

What makes Canada bad? The fact that we try to play this game without a weak currency, without heavy government subsidies, and with a western based cost structure? Farmers have had their equity eroded and have huge debt loads. They do not have extensive ability to finance the Canadian crop. I agree that we should not be offering low quality feed wheat to a world below cost of production. We should carry it over till the world "needs" the grain. How will farmers pay their bills and survive while we carry inventory till the world needs it? You answer me that question with a workable solution and I will spend the coming winter as a champion of that cause.

[tower]

Farming has been an exported industry for much of history. Keep farmers on the land close to home but ensure that there is somewhere within transportation range that can provide food. Food is the energy that society runs on, so it has to be cheap.

Perhaps you have to subjugate or kill off the present owners of the land in order to do it but up til now it's worked fairly well, As late as the eighties the Americans acknowledged that food is a weapon, I suppose to be used in seige, in blackmail, and presumably in relief.

We can continue to use this formula, subjugate other peoples, by interfering in their internal food production patterns, limiting trade, harrassing their economic system, or simple old genocide, or we can start to look at each other as neighbours with something to add to our possible escape from the running of the lemmings.

This surplus, how do we have a surplus when people are killing each other for food, could be used to make energy. As I mentioned I think it costs more energy to produce grain than it provides. Now that would be a definite undercut on the market.

How much nitrogen, potash, phosphates, carbon, fibre, etc is lost when 200 lbs of fertilizer are put on a grain crop and 3600lbs of grain are taken off ?
There is the subsidy that farmers are giving to consumers. And not just Canadian farmers.

[tower]

Farming has been an exported industry for much of history. Keep farmers on the land close to home but ensure that there is somewhere within transportation range that can provide food. Food is the energy that society runs on, so it has to be cheap.

Perhaps you have to subjugate or kill off the present owners of the land in order to do it but up til now it's worked fairly well, As late as the eighties the Americans acknowledged that food is a weapon, I suppose to be used in seige, in blackmail, and presumably in relief.

We can continue to use this formula, subjugate other peoples, by interfering in their internal food production patterns, limiting trade, harrassing their economic system, or simple old genocide, or we can start to look at each other as neighbours with something to add to our possible escape from the running of the lemmings.

This surplus,(how do we have a surplus when people are killing each other for food?), could be used to make energy. As I mentioned I think it costs more energy to produce grain than it provides. Now that would be a definite undercut on the market.

How much nitrogen, potash, phosphates, carbon, fibre, etc is lost when 200 lbs of fertilizer are put on a grain crop and 3600lbs of grain are taken off ?
There is the subsidy that farmers are giving to consumers. And not just Canadian farmers.

[TOM4CWB]

RationAL;

Closing the gate after the horse left the barn... is a very bad marketing choice.

Chosing to market feed grain using corn and CBOT wheat has always been a option at the CWB... 2mmt feed wheat, 3mmt feed barley... precontracted spring hedges.

We know this grain will exist in the fall. All the CWB has to do is put this market plan in place before hand.

Thousands of farmers put together marketing plans... this spring... and are contibuters to family, community, and country... paying taxes on profits.

I Know... the CWB cannot do this because it is not in the interests of the livestock industry in Canada!

Innovations are not allowed...

WHY?; trains stop... boats don't need to run, oil wells might shut in... certainly this also is not in the interests of the Canadian Industrial complex.

$7.00 feed wheat and $4.50/bu corn is only allowed/assured in Quebec (today)... at the expence of Alberta and Ontario (transfer payments).

Any wonder why we have trade problems with subsidies paid to fellow Canadians like this?

We need solutions RationAL... empty words don't save our communities!

[tower]

I always say if it's worth saying it's worth saying twice.

[Ration-Al]

I call Bullshit Tom,

Contract millions of tonnes of feed wheat and barley in the spring. How much of Canada's wheat graded feed last year. 90% of the crop was #1.

And how much of the barley was offered to the board two years ago when Lethbridge was the highest price market on the planet? 50,000 tonnes!

There are always market fluctuations and volatility. If the CWB took a position and was unable to fill it in the fall who takes the hit? Can you imagine what people like yourself would say if the CWB lost millions of dollars because of a bad bet? The CWB would be crucified and that would be the end. Is that what you really want Tom? The end of the CWB?

There seems to be little difference between those who clearly want to see the complete demise of the CWB and those who purport to want more "freedom" for themselves and say the CWB should be maintained for "those who want it".

Show us your true colors Tom.

Tell us exactly what program changes you would make if you get elected and what impact that would have on the CWB and on the people who wish to continue doing business with the CWB.

Lay out your plan in detail. What would you do with the following:
- pooling
- pricing options
- legislative changes to the CWB Act
- corporate structure
- elections of directors
- government guarantees
- single desk mandate
- contingency fund
- establishment of a capital base
- investment in value added processing in Canada and/or offshore
- investment in grain handling
- agricultural business ventures
- producer cars
- communications
- accountability
- grain marketing
- market development
- varietal ownership
- support for CIGI
- support for CGC
- support for WGRF
- support for GMO
- strategic alliances
- rail competition
- corporate consolidation

Tom, tell us how they all fit together and how they will meet your objective, whether that be to strengthen the CWB or to destroy it.

[ianben]

This is why CWB depresses markets world wide.
Last year Canada 90% grades 1 world sees plentyful supply prices fall but CWB gains small premium on a low price.
This year high feed wheat numbers CWB gains small premium on a totally unrealistic price.
Where is the price motivation for CWB if they only seek a premium on the market.

I seek a solution which expands our markets both your and mine and every other farmer worldwide. Low prices do not appear to be feeding the hungry just making them poorer still!!

I do not support subsidies either which are abussed and misdirected, even into Canadian land prices it appears. One of the guys whose farm I looked at was using the money to retire to Vancover Island.
Yes I am probably asset rich and but personnally subsidizing grain production at todays prices.

We all need better prices no matter where we farm. The world would be a better place too!

I think we need Government help though.

If our governments helped either directly or through tax system to make avalable multi fuel boilers some other fuel based idea.
Which even if the price was below cost of production but equalled energy value it would not go into the food chain and lowering prices.

Is this a solution?

Could CWB make an even bigger premium burning its lower grade wheat and acheiving the real value for grade1

[Incognito]

Hay Boone:

Arent ya glad ya came back?

[Ration-Al]

ianben,

Yes I agree that taking low quality wheat off the market would be helpful. To do that we need a long term plan to convert low quality wheat to energy either as fuel for thermal generating stations or as feedstock for ethanol. The problem is that ethanol must be subsidized and corn makes a better feedstock for ethanol than wheat.

The best feedstock for ethanol here would be a cellulose like wheat straw, perennial grass or poplar trees. The company Iogen is in the process of choosing a location for a cullulose based ethanol plant. It might be located in Saskatchewan.

A researcher at the University of Tennesee I believe has studied the effect of growing energy crops on the price of other crops that would be displaced. It provides a ray of hope for us, but like everything else it will take time.

Again I must disagree with you as to the impact the CWB has on prices. The fact that we ask a premium for our product can only have one impact on pricing and that is to push it up. What you are saying is that the volume of wheat that we market pushes prices down. So you are suggesting that we should quit selling our wheat period. How about all the rest of you quit selling wheat so that we can achieve profitable returns.

[TOM4CWB]

RationAL;

Hey!

Come on Down to Biggar... Nov. 10... and ask those questions all you like.

The folks in Alliance had a real treat last night... just ask Chairman Ritter!

IT WAS GREAT F U N for all involved!

I believe all questions of me were answered... take a look at my web WWW.TOM4CWB.COM... but you know already...

THanks for the help!