Beans down 9 tonight on respectable volume

[r.reid]

That is the 6 million dollar question.

Personally, if I were the boss man this is what I'd say,

"O.K....ENOUGH, The past is over. No more free ride on the back of the workin man. You are a Canadian living in Canada, perhaps the best nation in the world. And if you want to be a part of it, your gonna follow the same rules as everyone else. If that's not good enough...then here is a chunk of land to go start your own country. Sink or swim."

That is what I would do.

[r.reid]

And do you really think that any politician will advocate that ? I am willing to bet that people will be having this same discussion fifty years from now !

[cowman]

Actually r.reid raises a good point? The Indian Affairs(or whatever the PC name is today) is basically out of control?
How much money is being spent? And are we getting the desired results?
Are we moving these people ahead?
It is difficult to make a true assessment in Alberta as most of the Indian bands are awash with money because of oil and gas. And yet their communities continue to have major problems with the money seeming to accumulate among a select few? The tribal governments would make even a federal Liberal blush with the corruption, graft and patronage?
I believe in a real democracy you can never have a racial elite? One that, entitles one race to a life on the dole or more rights than anyone else? I really find it funny when a "First Nations" spokesman is blond and blue eyed! As at OKA?
Emerald states very clearly that their is not a politician who will ever tackle this thing...and I suspect she is right? It is a fact that to get elected(which is like winning the lottery) you have to play to the crowd and the crowd are a bunch of brainwashed sheep! Perhaps the time has come when we need to turn politics back into the concept of serving your country instead of getting a cushy job with all the perks? Then, maybe we might get people running who want to do the right thing instead of a bunch of low lifes? The old garbage of you have to pay well or you won't attract the right people has pretty well proven itself wrong? Look at all the gems we have in Ottawa with both feet in the trough? I guess it isn't working!

[cowman]

cowman society did a great disservice to our native population many many years ago. They should have always had to be responsible for their destiny and we took that away. Hauling native kids away from their parents and putting them in residential schools where they were punished for speaking their own language was terribly terribly wrong. Much of what has happened to our native people is the result of the wrong kind of intervention by white man. The federal government was more anxious dole out goods to the first nations people than they were to provide the initiative to ensure that they learned to make it on their own. The oil and gas royalties that many of our native bands receive has been the downfall of many of the young people. To have vast sums of money handed to any eighteen year old would likely see disasterous results in many cases no matter what race or color .
My neice ran the dialysis unit on a reserve for many years, the average age of her patient was 26. Most of whom had ruined their health with alcohol and or drugs. She had to get out of that area of work because it was far too demoralizing to deal with.

[cakadu]

We aren't the only ones who have ruined a race of people. Look at the Aborigines in Australia. They existing for some known 60,000 years before they ever came into contact with a white person. The aborigines over there have many of the same social problems that we do. The only thing they want from the Australian government is to have them apologize for what happened and the government won't because they feel if they do, then it will lead to more.

About a year and a half ago I had the good fortune to travel the Northern Territory as well as Western Australia and saw how many of the aboriginals live now. They have lost most of their desire and/or ability to live off the land like their ancestors did and have huge problems with alcohol - just as the natives have here. There are many dry settlements over there, with hefty fines for bringing in alcohol - something like $300 per CAN of beer that you are caught with.

We would watch as the aborigines gathered out under a tree to talk and to drink and made the conclusion that the only thing different from what "civilized" cultures is the fact that we sit on chairs in a smoky, crowded room, which someone makes us so different.

We do need to find solutions to this problem that will become a generational thing unless someone has the wherewithall to take it on and come up with sustainable solutions. Think about how you would feel if you couldn't get a loan unless the government said that you could and they had to sign the papers for you. Yes, some of us starting out have to get a guarantor, but we don't have to get someone to sign saying that we can have the loan in the first place.

This whole drug and alcohol problem isn't just a native problem either. Look at how many kids we are loosing to crystal meth every day. Could there be a deeper social problem at play here?

[cakadu]

Linda, I have a very dear friend that is metis, her father was treaty and her mother was raised on a reserve but is metis. She has risen above all possible adversity including her brothers suicide mainly brought on due to bullying in school. She is married to a white man and when they were going together his friends in a very well known rural Ab community literally vandalized his vehicles and left horrible racist notes because he was seeing a metis girl.
She now is a well known health practitioner specializing in alternative health care, and has done everything in her power over the years to help metis and first nations young people develop self esteem and feel that they are valued members of society.

I spent some time speaking with several elders of the Siksika nation last fall, and heard of their experiences as young men in residential schools etc. They are adamant that the young people on the reserve now are taught to be proud of their heritage and to do everything they can to make the world a better place not only for first nations but for all people.
As referenced in an earlier post a lot of first nation bands have seen corruption and lack of fiscal responsibility with the resource revenue they receive, but you can be sure that responsibility for these funds was not always in the hands of first nations people. Sometimes bands put their trust in non natives to manage their assets and were victims of some pretty unscrupulous actions.

If society really wants to see changes the first thing we need to do is stop pointing fingers and work with the native population to make changes that will benefit not only their people but Canadians as a whole.

[r.reid]

Well...You asked what I would do..And I told you.

[WoolyBear]

I am sorry emrald1, but I have to disagree about the residential schools. I think that the original intention was to bring the "bush savages" (as they were once refered to)(Please excuse me for repeating that) to a level of education that could advance them to a higher level. Tuberculosis was also running rampant on the northern reserves and while I know that live expectance wasn't great, I can't quote a number.

Sure, there were some perverted souls on staff, but I personally don't believe that it was as bad as the native lawyers are claiming.

Where we go from here is not really up to us, as the educated ones will have their lawyers tying this up in court for years, at TAXPAYERS expense whether the government losses or not.

[r.reid]

emerald 1. Think about this.

My ansestors came to this uncharted land on a boat with NOTHING, not even shoes. They settled in Sask. (on my Dads side) and south western Nebraska (on my Moms side). They fought disease, death, bugs, the 30s, and what ever else, and made something of themselves. Nobody gave them anything.

My point to this is simple. Everyone in one point of their background has had it rough. But the Indians are the only ones that use the same old arguement over, and over; (so and so happened X number of years ago, that has nothing to do with todays times WHAT-SO-EVER, so you have to pay me).

Yes it is to bad what happend to them X number of years ago. But get over it already and get on with it like everybody else has had to. Cause quite frankly the system can't support this much longer (in Sask. anyhow) and it's going to come down on top of everybodies heads.

We WON'T be having the same arguement in 50 years like one of your last posts stated. Cause the ratio of people putting in the system as apposed to taking out of the system is getting smaller and smaller every year.

It's simple math 101 emerald 1.

[cakadu]

I'm just throwing this out there, what would it look like if the first nations were required to pay taxes? Would that work towards making them more responsible?

What, if any, difference is there between the fellow who buys cattle etc. in order to avoid paying taxes and someone who is tax exempt? They are both still not paying taxes, while the rest of us are.

What about the big corporations, who if even required to pay 10% tax, would add significantly to the revenues of this country. Think about each of the big 5 banks. Each of them boasts profits per quarter into the hundreds of million, if not billion per quarter. 10% of a billion dollars would go a long way wouldn't it?

It's been my experience that unless you've walked in someones shoes for a while, it's hard to know what it is like and what you would be like. Look at the welfare system. You see people abusing the welfare system all the time and people who grow up in that system sometimes go on to become the next generation.

I agree, it is time to put the past behind us and move on. It's only been in the last while that there have been concerted efforts to help aboriginal peoples get the help that they need, after at least a couple of hundred of abuse. It won't go away over night, but we can sure try to make a difference, one person or one group at a time.

[r.reid]

"What, if any, difference is there between the fellow who buys cattle etc. in order to avoid paying taxes and someone who is tax exempt? They are both still not paying taxes, while the rest of us are."

A BIG BIG differance.

1. The person slaving his/her butt off pulling a calf in the middle of the night in the cold,,,is trying to get ahead. (It is called CAPITALISM)

2. The person that isn't paying taxes because a paper says they don't have to,,,is not getting ahead and is infact going backwards. They don't have to worry about the person pulling that frozen calf out of a cow. Why should they.

3. The one with the cows, or crop, or bussiness; creates jobs and spin-offs benifitting everyone around them. This leads to more dollars being spent in the stores, and gas stations, restaurants and car dealerships or whatever (again CAPITALISM).

4. The one not paying tax because a piece paper says they doesn't have too,,,,does not create any of the things I mentioned in point # 3. But in fact they take away.

To relate the two is completely wrong and careless.

[r.reid]

r.reid, I don't know much about the first nations people in Saskatchewan but in Alberta there are many that do pull calves in the middle of the night, as part of their duties toward the band they are part of. For those that cannot work due to illness etc., many are required to clean the houses of the elderly natives on the reserve, do do their part in caring for their aging population. Not every first nations band are lazy and uselss. As far as the comment about agreeing with the residential schools, how many of us would want to be scooped up in our backyards, taken on an airplane far away and not see our families for years, be separated from our siblings and whipped because we spoke the only language we knew. Believe me, I know people that had this happen to them, and they are only in their late fifties now. Many have gone on to make significant accomplishments and in some cases haven't ever found their families or if they have it hasn't been until they were well into their twenties or thirties. I would be shocked at anyone that would agree with that.

I am not disagreeing with the suggestions that there needs to be some major changes to the legislation that governs our first nations people. But it will not come about without much controversy and certainly not without huge legal battles that will possibly cost our government more than the status quo.

[r.reid]

That is great that they are self suffecient and making a go of it in places in Alberta

But in Saskatchewan for every 1 "success" story there are 10 miserable failures, that nobody wants to talk about. I too have seen the results of Indian bands trying to farm and run cows. The smashed combines, the dead cows, the empty grain bins, the broken fences that remain after it failed. Makes one throw-up.

Someone paid for it.

Question: Emerald 1, does the Indian band you speak of pay income tax like their non-native counterparts? If not then why?

You know what's really sad? It is the Indians that do try to get ahead and then the other "dead-beat" Indians try to bring them down.

[cakadu]

I should have been a little more specific rreid about the guy having cattle to avoid paying taxes. It is not too likely that he is out there in the middle of the night pulling calves, he likely has someone custom doing it for him. It is the person who many on this site have said shouldn't be in the cattle business because he is the "hobby" farmer and doesn't really care if he/she ever makes any money on cattle. The poor fellow out there in the middle of the night in all kinds of weather is often trying to make a living solely from the farm.

What sorts of resources are there in Sask to help the natives? What sort of effort is being made in each of the communities? From what you describe, there appears to be a significant difference between our two provinces, some of which can be attributed to the wealth that comes from the oil revenue.

On the other hand, there are bands that live in abject poverty because there is no treaty money, no oil revenue and no hope for where they are. How do we help those people become more productive and most importantly, value themselves?

[cakadu]

The natives that seem to fall through the cracks here in AB are the ones that leave the reserves or do not have treaty status. Many of those young people go to the larger centres and some do get involved with the wrong type of lifestyle. The problems on reserves with families are usually due to drug and alcohol abuse....but the native population certainly does not have a monopoly on those vices !!!