Beans down 9 tonight on respectable volume

[r.reid]

Cakadu and Emerald 1...You are totally missing my point.

Why should they need oil $$$ or treaty $$$ to make it. Is it because they are different?? Is it because they are stupid and can't work??? NO, it isn't. It is just become to easy to sit by the mail box and wait for that free check to come.

It is attitudes like yours that are making them the way they are.

Nobody appreciates anything if you just give it to them. Because then they just become to expect it (like now). They must EARN it.

Cakadu, you want to know what is here to "help" them become better.
1. Free schooling (a doctor, lawyer, rocket scientist, whatever).
2. Money to live on while they go to school
3. Free (reserve) fully equipt housing.
4. Job priority based on race (quota system).

Probably similar in Alberta???

There should be no need of the problems that we now face NO NEED OF IT.

[cakadu]

There will always be those that try to pull others down, no matter what you do. I agree emrald, having problems with drugs and alcohol is not limited to a particular race, color, social standing or wealth. It happens in the best of families and more often than one might think.

Anyone that gets a hand up at the right time generally goes on to do better. Sadly, there are those that don't have anyone there to give them a hand, a kind word or help of any sort.

The solutions have to be generated with a great deal of input from the natives - without that, we will once again be telling them what we think is right. They should be allowed to determine what is right for themselves.

[cakadu]

The oil money and the treaty money are what have lead to some of the problems - I agree with you there.

If you remove any incentive, then there are problems, no matter who you are.

Many of the younger generation have had "things" given to them because their parents could afford it, the kids wanted it and it's easier to provide things than what kids need and that is stability, boundaries and most of all knowing that they are loved. We have seen a whole host of societal problems arising because many kids today expect things and don't recognize or appreciate the value of working for them. I'm not saying that all kids are bad, in fact the opposite as there are some really great kids out there.

We must seek first to understand (and this could be cultural differences, the feelings that you get when you've been treated poorly for many years or even your entire life etc.) and then help them to make lasting changes. All of us want to feel good about ourselves.

[r.reid]

OH Yeah I forgot about

5. free prescription meds (including most narcotics)
6. eye care.

Tell me how it can continue??

[r.reid]

Cakadu what are you saying here?? First you say:

"On the other hand, there are bands that live in abject poverty because there is no treaty money, no oil revenue and no hope for where they are.

Then you say:

"The oil money and the treaty money are what have lead to some of the problems - I agree with you there."

Well? Which is it Good or Bad?

[cakadu]

There are bands that live without any money and they have problems and there are bands, particularly here in Alberta, that live with a lot of money and have problems.

I don't think it is a case of good or bad it just is and we are going to have to find workable solutions for it. Nor do I think it is all cut and dried - there are a lot of grey areas here. I've been told recently by a friend about all the native people she has been working with that are trying to make a difference with the aboriginal youth and they are succeeding. It has taken many, many decades for it to deteriorate to the state it has. It will take more than just a year or two to get it fixed.

For me, it is about seeing them as people first and wanting to help empower people to be the best that they can.

Now, if they don't want the help, that is a different story, but most people want to feel good about themselves and who they are. Many have no idea who they are, as do many of us have no clue as to who we really are unless we work at it every day.

[r.reid]

Fair enough.

But when do you say "O.K. that's it, your on your own now".

Casinos aren't going to give them any great service. But that's what they want. And they'll fight "tooth and nail" to get one.

[r.reid]

r.reid, question for you . Which do you think costs more to Canadians, the dollars spent on natives or the Senate ?

[cowman]

I would suggest as long as you provide the ghetto(reservation) you are going to get people living in the ghetto?
I know an East Indian who has done pretty well at business. He told me when he first came to Canada he lived in Vancouver. When he got married and started a family he decided to get out and come to Alberta. His reason: He wanted his kids to be Canadians...not East Indians! As long as they lived in a straight East Indian community his kids would not become really integrated. He said he never regretted that move. His kids speak English and they are no different than other Canadian kids. Their friends are every color and race of the world. His reasoning: If I wanted to stay in India, I would have stayed there!
As long as the reserves are there, there will be little incentive for our natives to become Canadians? All this BS about preserving cultures is just that...BS! The myth that they lived in some kind of utopia is just that...a myth! Read Anthony Hendays journal about his travels in early Alberta and how the natives were in abject poverty and starvation. Real history...not modern BS history?
I do agree that our government in the past did the natives a grave injustice by turning them into wards of the state. They continue to make it worse everyday by telling them they can't make it in the big bad real world and throwing more money at them.
And emerald I would guess Indian Affairs spends many times more money than the senate does, but enlighten us?

[cowman]

comwan, I mentioned the Senate just to point out that the government spends money on that side of government that in my opinion is useless and a complete waste of the taxpayers money, so would we rather they spent money there or spent it on a segment of society that does have signed treatys that guarantee them what they receive. I think that the treatys should be changed, abolished or some how restructured to provide deeded land to the native population for them to farm, sell or whatever they wish to do with it. I also think that a phased in approach to autonomy of the first nations people should commence....however will we see it in our lifetime ? I personally doubt that any federal government will have the courage to deal with the issue.

[rookie]

What a mess .

We cite the aboriginees of australia being thee for thousands of years, and the natives of north america being here also ( living there traditional life style ) and along comes a new society where we install phones, t.v. , and every other modern thing and say be like us....
It has been a very steep learning curve for them all.
It saddens meto think that people who for thousands of years stayed basically the same have had to change so drastically in such a relatively short period of time.
It sure doesn't surprise me there are problems. "My people " if I can put it that way, can't seem to be perfect aftr plenty of so called civilized evolution.
I hear people say "they " should be like us ( so what example has our society set at times )

Crap... how many farmers are stuck in there generational tracks not really planning to change there ways these days ( and if so how much).

I don't know how it will all evolve, but I am sure it wil go beyond my time .
Nothing happens over night, does it ?

My only fear is that every thing except one ingrediant is being thrown at this whole issue.

Understanding

Then again maybe that is something our little global village should practice a bit more... and do you think that will happen to the level we all want .

my two cents

[cakadu]

Rookie, good points. Aren't we in the west also doing that to the developing countries? I've often wondered at what point white western civilization became the best way to live because in many instances, we certainly aren't the model for really good living, as you've stated.


We have to first seek to understand, then be understood. Is there no room for compromise here? Does it have to be all one way or the other? It is going to take time and a lot of work, effort and resources channeled the most effective way to sustain meaningful change.

It's true emrald, what has the senate done for us lately? Alberta spent some $3 million to lamely elect 4 wannabe senators and I say lamely because the majority of people didn't even vote for senators. Mind you, those people really didn't do much in the way of campaigning either - just put your x there, but I digress.

That could have been $3 million spent towards our youth - no matter what culture - money that would have been far better spent.

[r.reid]

Emerald 1

Yes the senate is a waste of money 99.9% of the time. But that is a seperate issue alltogather (Adrian Clarkson needs her ass booted too).

Tell me Emerald 1 what do the treaties guarantee???
1. New 4x4 trucks...NO
2. High powered rifles to go night hunting with...NO
3. Casinos that become mismanaged, and in debt to the tune of millions...NO
4. Bumper stickers that read "WORK HARD WHITE MAN"...NO
5. Budwieser...NO

I say again "the money comes from somewhere".

The treaties are are a JOKE.

[r.reid]

At one time I did know a lot of what some of the treatys did mean to the first nations, however, I haven't read them for awhile. I imagine that pickup trucks are purchased with oil revenue, treaty money etc., so it would seem that if the natives receive that money under a condition of their treaty, it is their business what they buy with it. There are some agreements that allow treaty indians the right to travel back and forth across the US/Canada Border at will, as this is a condition that was given years and years ago.
Rookie, you made some excellent points. I think that we need to step back and look at this situation and how it evolved and how the treatys came about. Certainly, most of us have our roots in another country, and our ancestors came here with likely only the clothes on their back and a few dollars in their pockets if they were among the fortunate ones.
They also were able to homestead and prove up lands that became theirs outright.
The native population was here long before any immigrants came from other lands, they had use of all the land and hunted, fished, trapped to support their people and their way of life.
White man came and trapped out all the beaver, shot the buffalo and when the natives opposed it they were herded onto reservations and treaty's were signed guaranteeing them certain things for as long as the 'rivers shall flow' etc.
From what I see the rivers or most of them are still flowing, and the younger generations of first nations have the right to expect the treaty's to be honored.
As I have said in other posts, if changes need to be made, then what are the alternatives ??

[r.reid]

Most all I have heard from some of you is: "look at the past, look what happened in the past, but remember what happened in the past".

Right...Okay...don't get me wrong, it IS important to remember the past and what happened. But we also must look to the future and start planning it now because it is spinning out of control.

First of all I say that the double standards must end now. It is causing more racism, not less. Everybodies culture is important and nobodies is more important than someone elses.

Second: Acountability must be enforced. No matter WHO it is. If someone messes up they should pay for it.

Third: Urban reserves should disappear. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. They have been made up to get out of following rules. (for example: Areas with casinos in cities such as Prince Albert, magically become "urban reserves". No tax, NO provincial laws , and so on). NOT FAIR.


(I wonder if there are any politicians who log onto this site, they might learn something)....

*If there are any politicians here reading...please feel free to hop on this discussion. I would like to hear what you have to say.