Milling Oats vs Milling Wheat

[agstar77]

I believe in the rule of law . Since the laws in this country were drawn up by duly elected representatives, I feel they should be upheld . If that means jail or fines so be it. If you wish to change the laws through legitimate means go for it. It seems the majority of Canadians do not share your views since the Reform party/ Conservatives can't get a majority. The other means would be to run for the board of directors and change the system . Since you can't seem to do either of these just stand there and throw stones at fellow producers who are trying to get the best returns possible under difficult circumstances. I could give you proof that pooled marketing works but I don't believe you are interested in hearing that or believe it. Yours is an idealogical fervor about marketing whereas I am ambivalent to the marketing system but I haven't seen anything better proposed. If I thought we would be better off under your scenario I would support you but haven't proved your case that we would be better off. The risk of destroying the present system is greater than some hope of a reward of premiums for a handful of large producers near the U.S. border. The real problem is the depressed state of ag commodities and high input costs. Being able to truck grain across the border without a permit really isn't a priority. My family has farmed here for 65 years and I have seen the highs and lows . T4 is right if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[TOM4CWB]

Agstar;

Well said.

May bring to your attention that in the bean industry in Alberta we have a Pool (Agricore United Bean Plant) that works very well on contracted acres.

No Monopoly.

Any other Bean contractor or Marketer can come into Alberta and contract acres for themselves... without those bean growers being threatened with jail time IF they contract to alternative non-pooling agencies.

We co-exist without a problem.

THis is the real issue.

Now how can we get to the bean situation of market choice with freedom?

[TOM4CWB]

Parsley;

My brother's pastor had a word of wisdom yesterday!

There are two ways that will usually end a conversation;

1. Compare them to A Hitler in some way;

2. Judge them and Tell them they are going to either Heaven or Hell.

Wise words we all need to heed!

[agstar77]

As I said before we did have a voluntary pooling system of sorts when there were real farmer operated Pools. Now you may be pooling with a multinational such as ADM. This seems to be working for you although since we can't look at ADM's books we don't know what percentage they taking not that it matters. The point is under this scenario we could pool with ADM Cargill , SWP ,Bunge etc. Each of these pools would compete against one another with the same product. How would they compete ? Better service to their customers, the buyers? Or maybe a cheaper price after grain handlers work on volume not price. Who would the sell to ? Their own subsidiaries in the milling business . Do you see the conflict? We really don't have any leverage over these operations as individual farmers unless we produce something they can't get somewhere else at a lower price. Would they be nice to us and get the highest return possible? Until you can answer that question, I think I will stick to the present system.

[agstar77]

In Parsley's books I'll end up in the hot place as a non believer LOL.

[Vader]

parsley, I think it is simply inappropriate to bring either A. Hitler or mention his atrocities in a civilized debate. Why did you do that? Maybe you should have attended you brothers pastors sermon. Perhaps you could actually learn something.

[silverback]

What are you two pro-board guys afraid of? If the board is the best "company" to market my grain, why doesn't it operate like a company instead of forced pooling? If I want to try and sc**** out a few extra pennies for myself if I can, why throw so many obstacles in my path?

Agstar, you just don't want to have to work any harder than putting in a crop. That is great, but why would you object to me finding a market for myself? That is insanity, and it is not freedom.

Vader you only want to maintain your job and pension. I have a feeling you would say that I should just quit farming and go somewhere else to work if I don't like this system. Well I could say the same thing to you. Did you ever think that maybe changing the way the system works might open up some opportunites for yourself and your family that aren't there now? If you are so good at what you do, is there not a great opportunity in a free market?

What do you kind of guys think you are saving me from? And who says it is your job to do it? If I will go broke because the big bad corporations will enslave me, why would you care? You don't care if other farmers go to jail, so why would you care if I go t___s up?
Then you can come and attend my farm sale and say "See, he tried to go against the duly elected representatives and failed. They do know what is best for us in this the designated area."

I have asked these questions before and I have yet to hear a valid response other than "that's just the way it is,too bad." Now that's good debate.

[agstar77]

I f you think you are such a good marketer maybe you should get a job with CWB and show them how it is done. Maybe you could get a posting in the far east, learn chinese and make us all a higher return, I could live with that and I would be willing to pay you a big fat salary. But I guess that wouldn't work because you only want a few select good marketers to get a higher return and screw everyone else. When these last few guys control all the production it will be a lot easier for you to make a living. But heh who needs neighbors.

[TOM4CWB]

Agstar77;

Would the Gov. of Canada ever allow us to maximise returns with a monopoly?

NEVER.

Why you ask?

Just think what would happen to supply management and livestock producers if the CWB put a BIG feed barley, Feed Wheat and Malt Barley program that hedged $3.00US corn into our CDN "designated area" feed markets.

Simple.

Livestock producers could not afford to compete and would be destroyed in the process.

This is why the monopoly MUST price daily, in a pooled base, with the majority of grain pricing in the bottom half of the market. The monopoly cannot benefit grain growers in a substantial way or it will reck the value added ag economy... by design.

[parsley]

Good Morning Agstar,
Sorry, I was away, but I wanted to respond to you, because you are a fellow farmer.

You've said it. You'll use the policy or regulation to hide behind so that you can justify your actions. Defending your common good. At all costs. I'm disappointed with you.

It was policy/regulation that didn't allow women to vote. The Legislation didn't even allow women to be people.

Thinking Canadians didn't quote the regulation at that time, agstar, they looked at what was actually occurring, and that is why change occured. (Would you have quoted your wife the regulation?)

Policy/regulation/legislation isn't always legitimate and we have to hope that our fellow Canadains can actually differentiate between right and wrong. Thinking people do not support what is insupportable.

The farmers who have carefully thought about the consequences of warped CWB policy no longer think being jailed for selling your own grain is supportable. You do.

You say you support the CWB jailing farmers, the CWB raiding farmers' homes in the middle of the night, the CWB fining farmers, the CWB intimidating farmers, the CWB chaining and shackling farmers, for heaven's sake. In the name of preserving the single desk, of course. The CWB's history of these accelerating tactics is troublesome to many Canadians, whilst you defend them.

What's next? Beatings in some remote Northern Manitoba camp, in the name of the common good, of course? Where does it end? We have to look to history for the answer, so we can recognize the symptoms that signal when the 'common good/CWB single desk fervor' has run amuck.

The CWB is a case study on the common-good gone bad. When the CWB has to expropriate and spend $1Million of farmers money every year to try and convince those same farmers that the CWB is working on their behalf, it's symptomatic of an organization rotting from within.

Another day, another farmer turns away from the CWB's treatment of their fellow famers. Most farmers recognizeright from wrong.

I have carefully watched what you have chosen vader, and I have have, indeed, learned things from you.

Parsley

[Vader]

Silverback, I don't know why you think that people who are pro-board are afraid of anything. I think it takes a lot of courage to take a stand and defend it.

Have you seen what is happening in the corporate world with mergers and acquisitions? Bunge has doubled the size of its holdings in the last five years to become the third largest grain handler in the world. They did it through acquisitions.

Saskatchewan Wheat Pool now that it is completely privatized could be "in play" at any time. The fiduciary duty of the Board of Directors would not be to resist a takeover but to ensure that the shareholders got the best price for their shares. How long will it be before one of the big four or five grain handling companies sets their sight on SWP. SWP has put themselves into a very desirable position now that they have converted their debt to equity.

What possible difference could it make to have one more small insignificant undercapitalized grain company join the fray. That would be the reality of CWB Grainco Inc.

What we should all do is address the real problem. Low grain prices. We produce too much. We simply do not respond in classic term to supply and demand. When supply goes up and prices go down we produce more. And so it goes.

Getting rid of the CWB will not lead to higher grain prices.

Higer energy prices will ultimately lead to us converting acres to energy crops and if that takes enough acres out of production we will then have a type of supply management in food grain crops.

Let us take the bit in our mouths and figure out a way for farmers to be the equity owners of the ethanol and bio-diesel value added industry, as is happening in the United States.

[parsley]

Vader,

Yes, you are more than eager for us Western horses to take that 'cheap fuel bit' in the mouth. Hee haw. Hee haw. Does your imagery mirror your marching orders?

First it was the Government using the CWB to download Canad's food aid committments on Western farmers. Now will the Government will be using the CWB to download high fuel costs on Western farmers?

Cheap grain...cheap fuel. Now there's your national common good, vader. Hee haw.

Piles and piles of cheap grain, regulated by the state, producing fuel, regulated by the state.


You'd better make a trip down to the Ontario farmers to get i them in the single-desk tent, because although they rejected CWB marketing from the getgo, this time they might be receptive when you wine and dine them.

Cheap fuel made with cheap grain. And taxed provincially and federally, appropriately.

Bring a sample. The proverbial Ethanol tent inflated by your gas.

They can't resist.

Parsley

[silverback]

I have put up a lot of questions that remain unanswered. Please feel free -anytime.

The CWB has had complete control of the vast majority of grain produced on the prairies for how long? How is it that only when asked or pressed, you reply that we have to search for new uses for our land and our grain production? What has been going on up until now? The boards policy has been to export product overseas, period. This is exactly the problem I see in the current operation of the board. There is no foresight, and there is no accountability. The rest of the world has been searching for new uses for its products for years, but we haven't even started. Now you say "Just let us keep doing what we have been, but we will make things better, honest". I say enough is enough. You do what you think will help the people who want to use the board and I will do what I think will help my little farm. Let me be free to fail, maybe I will learn from it and do better next time.

[agstar77]

Livestock producers will soon feel the heat of higher feed prices with or without the CWB . Cheap grain made out of expensive natural gas will not go on much longer. For interest local chicken producers are paying 3.50 for feed wheat. While this is still below production costs it shows the effect of high transport costs and high production costs. The next big crisis will be food in the supermarkets and at what price. One major crisis in the world will cause chaos in the food chain. Only then will things change. Biodeisel and the other alternatives will only work if they pay their way. If all we are doing is converting natural gas into bio fuels, it's a fools game. I agree the days of mass export of grains might be over but unfortunately the options for using our land base are not immediately available. Perhaps the day will come when the CWB will be just another grain company like the pools that have disintegrated or maybe it will be the only grain company with its own handling system with on farm sourced and pre-graded grain going directly to a buyer through a container car. We probably won't need those large concrete tombstones or the grain handling facilities at the port terminals. Anyone else have another view of the future?

[ianben]

Here in UK we are told we will harvest 2.5 times the energy we put in.
We are selling wheat for £70/tonne when it energy value is £105/tonne.

I read your debates on CWB and cannot decide who is right.

If CWB is a strong motivated seller and seeks out new and premium markets, is actually getting the energy value for your grain then it is doing a good job

Otherwise it is just a very very large farmer with an enormous amount of grain to "sell" which buyers use to depress all farmers income yours and mine.

I see your government has given the green light to biofuels does this involve CWB?