dual system debate 101

[agstar77]

Just when you think you have heard it all!! Tsk Tsk T4.

[TOM4CWB]

Vader;

Economics 101.

Economic reality is what it is... not something I create out of thin air.

WD9 I believe stated the 4 producer theory... somewhat in jest... but reality in economics none the less.

You must admit that power and wealth in one group will tend to align others to balance the other side...

To deal with the first group's market power and wealth effectively...

Equilibrium, the pendulum swings back and forth... common economics well known.

The EU gathers strength... to balance the US...

Brazil, S. A./Asian economies band together against the US/EU in the WTO.

THe Alliances grow... gain; power, influence...

Why do nation states and Corp's do what we do?

Survival/Strength from the worldly perspective is actually quite simple isn't it?

[Vader]

Sorry Tom, I totally disagree with your contention that the multi-nationals grew in power to offset the power of the CWB. Totally ridiculous. Someone who has a solid economics background told me that you can actually quantify market power. He said that the amount of market power that the CWB has is insignificant compared to the multinationals. Just look at the corporate earnings of Cargill, ADM, Bunge, Dreyfuss and ConAgra. Together they control around 80% of the world trade in grain. In wheat alone that is 100 million tonnes. The cwb's share of wheat trade is about 20 million tonnes per year and the cwb does not trade in corn, soybeans rice, sugar etc, etc, etc. How can you say that the CWB has concentracted market power and is to blame for the concentration of the grain traders?

Tom you are totally unbeliveable.

Now where I do agree with you is that the pendulum needs to swing. Farmers around the world need to "band together" to balance the power of the multinationals. Let us simply divide up the world markets and prorate the production amongst the farmers. Let us assume that we actually have supply management on a global scale. Then let us set the price so that farmers can make a living. Just like General Motors. Let's base ag products on the cost of production.

What is the alternative. Farmers will all but disappear. Just go to any large farm meeting. Have a look at all the grey heads. Who are we kidding? Agriculture will have a rough go if we keep doing what we are doing. Or are you the future of agriculture Tom? Can you show us the way? What is your plan? Divide and conquer? Whose plan is that?

[Vader]

Tom, I am sure that you and Len Penner get along very well. You probably suit his plan perfectly.

[silverback]

You should know whose plan is "Divide and Conquer" very well Vader.

It has been the policy of your Liberal masters for years - with great success!

Sometimes it is better to learn from the successful.

[TOM4CWB]

What a plan Vader;

Let us reset the clock to 1929... and play it again!

Can farmers change currency?

The biggest factor in the loss of value of our grain today vs. 3 years ago!

The biggest challenge in the future for CDN farmers to remain viable... CDN $ relative to the US $.

AND the CWB risk management plan?

1929 technology... do nothing and burry our collective heads in the gravel...

What are those 6" by 8" by 8ft long toothpicks that hold up our 2 handrails to oblivion Vader?

Hmmm... I hear a rumble


ASK Mr. Penner what he thinks of me Vader... see what he replies!

I certainly would be interested to know!

In 2006, to make a farm sustainable... a WRITTEN PLAN will be necessary for a profitable outcome to this growing season.

What is the CWB Marketing plan Vader?

What was this I read about management by accident?

Please sh

[wedino]

Vader, Quote "Farmers around the world need to "band together" to balance the power of the multinationals. Let us simply divide up the world markets and prorate the production amongst the farmers."

How do you decide who gets to produce? Will they be penalized if they produce too much? How do you explain to starving people when the chosen few(those that actually get to produce) have a crop failure?

Each year there are 100's of thousands of people that die due to starvation. Wouldn't we be better off if we could figure a way to feed these people?

[Vader]

Cry me a river Wedino. I have heard enough about starving people all over the world. For the most part it is their own govenments fault. Is wheat at $1.75 not cheap enough for the starving people of the world? Should we produce even more for even less? You sound just like T4. What about my starving family because I am selling at below my cost of production.

[lakenheath]

Wedino you sound like Monsanto. "It is our sole mission to feed the poor and hungry of the world". Bull!!!! Biggest myth going today. Overporduction is our biggest problem next to the subsidies that create this monster. The world has more than enough food to go around. Too much. Starving nations can't afford food. Why? Because they can't make enough money through there own agricultural economy to purchase our so called "cheap food", not the mention corup government that we never hear about in the new. Subsidies are killing these Third World nations and our farmers. Not the CWB.

[wd9]

Lakenheath, I would agree. The average cow in Europe is worth more in subsidies annually than a typical farmer makes in one year in Africa. Twisted - yup. CWB's fault - nope.

[wedino]

Vader, lakenheath: Why do you choose not answer these questions?

How do you decide who gets to produce? Will they be penalized if they produce too much? How do you explain to starving people when the chosen few(those that actually get to produce) have a crop failure?

[Vader]

wedino, I choose not to answer because it is not up to me to decide. I simply know that overproduction is the problem. Overproduction will continue to be the problem and I don't want to be part of that.

As you may or may not know I have gone organic on my farm. I am not an organic evangelist but I will tell you that I am growing my own nitrogen fertilizer. I do not have a HUGE fertilizer bill to pay off. If you saw the front page of the Western Producer there are studies showing that organic producers can rival the yields of conventional producers. By including a plow down in my rotation I have 25% less acres in production. That is working well for me. These last two years are going to be the most profitable years in my farming history. Certainly the premiums for organic are helping, but if we produced 25% less grain I think that conventional grain would be worth more than organic is today.

You might want to have a look at some information on the soil foodweb at
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/

It may never be possible to establish a mechanism for supply management. It may not be possible to save the family farm.

I see three basic choices. Reduce supply. Increase demand. Legislative solutions (subsidies, floor prices, ad hoc payments, etc).

I don't think that the legislative solution will work. Some will say that I have left out the obvious solution where we simply compete more effectively. I don't believe that is a solution. We have become as efficient as possible given the available technology and we will continue to become more efficient. That simply drives production up and prices down. That will be a continuing challenge.

Growing our own nitrogen fertilizer will reduce supply. Growing our own fuel (biodiesel and ethanol) will increase demand. If we are really smart we can build a part of the bioenergy industry as it moves forward and be part of the value chain and not simply the suppliers of commodity inputs.