Organic

[lakenheath]

Why are guys like Silverback so anti-organic? Why, when people mention organics do you get so upset? I am not organic, but I will be the first to say that it is one of the smartest ideas going in agriculuture today. It takes a very smart manager and farmer to pull off organic farming. Modern agriculture, no matter how you carve it up, is not sustainable in the long run, nor is it doing any good for the environment. That is a fact that we all somehow ignore. Including myself.

The problem with organics is that farmers (I for one) are not in the position to take one such risk in the 3 year transition period required to become an organic producer.

So we continue to farm for high yields, with slim margins on ever increasing acres that we compete with the neighbour to buy for inflated and often un-returnable values. While keeping our eyes open for a crop like chickpeas to come and save us again or a new durum that yields 100 bushels to the acre.

[Jman]

Well stated.

I for one don’t think that the world's growers should switch to organic production. If we did, we could not sustain the world’s food requirements.

However, if certain producers are savvy enough to drop modern (high cost) agricultural practices and go back to the basic crop husbandry practices used by our forefathers, filling niche markets that provide 100-200% increased gross returns.... good on them. This is what you can refer to as a good entrepreneur. After all that is what we as grain farmers should strive to be, independent entrepreneurs, not just another low cost commodity suppliers.

I'll bet you most younger farmers today have no idea (or do not have the time required) to produce a "good" yielding crop without today's modern input convinces. It's almost as if we have become junkies, evermore reliant on a "pill" to cure our productivity woes. Any amateur "farmer" can produce high yielding crops these days with today's modern convinces, just as long as they can afford the input costs. Don’t believe me,.. well just look at your neighbours’ crops. All fields look the same these days because everyone Is using the “latest greatest techniques”. Its not like it used to be, where there was different levels of productivity between neighbouring farms, we now all look the same, producing the same yielding crops, and now competing on a level playing field. All we do now is listen to the local radio station to find out what seed we should be planting and what pesticides an fertilizers we need to apply to our field crops. In fact some of the line-companies, are suggesting that they should scout your fields to advise you how to apply these inputs. With these modern conveniences, it’s no wonder we don’t nee “educated” farmers anymore. ..it’s become that easy!

By the way, why are agricultural inputs (seed, chemical) are advertised on urban radio and TV stations but no other industry can afford to do this? For example when is the last time you heard forestry, restaurant, mining, oilfield inputs products advertised on your local stations? After all, most of these industries dwarf agriculture in economic size. I guess that is why seed and chemical prices keep increasing every year, and the farmer’s input costs never decrease.


As for the organic producers, I fear that as your production and demand become more mainstream, you’re premiums will quickly erode and be consumed through the traditional value-added chain.

[Vader]

Did you notice the front page article of the Western Producer a few weeks back?

Organic yields equal to conventional!

But.......

You have to sacrifice one out of four years for a legume plowdown crop!

Now, I don't recommend that everybody switch over to organic tomorrow, however what if that organic plowdown "crop" actually made economic sense?

What if the legume plowdown was a "crop" that you could grow in rotation and it was worth $XX.00 per acre.

What if there was always a ready market for that crop and you couldn't overproduce for the market place? What if you never had to worry about storage, or freight or collecting payment for that crop?

Now, you might have a "wreck". You may not get enough rain. Hail wouldn't matter, since you are going to plow it down anyway. An early frost couldn't hurt you. Harvesting is all done long before you pull the combine out. You might have to rent a tandem disk.

This was a common crop back in the 40's before synthetic fertilizers were available. We all know that it works.

Does it pay? Perhaps that depends on the value of Nitrogen fertilizer. And that depends these days on the cost of natural gas. And where is natural gas going? UP... UP..... UP. perhaps?

Organic premium? If we all went organic would there still be an organic premium? Perhaps not.

What if we all grew our own nitrogen fertilizer? But that would take 25 percent of our land out of production? Or would it? It would still be producing. We would simply not grow a crop for sale to others. We would grow the crop for ourselves.

Would that lead to a 25 percent reduction in crops available for sale to the market place?

Perhaps! Nitrogen could be the most wildly profitable crop grown in the world..... if it caused a short in the market.

Oh! And you might find that you had a few less weed probems after the legume. Oh! And you might find that you needed a bit less herbicides. Oh! And you might find that it was the easiest way to transition into O......!

[silverback]

Hey if you guys want to go organic great - giver! That is great news for me. If you want to find a parallel market for the stuff you grow - good.
How about letting me find a market for what I produce by myself too? Didn't think so. So please go ahead, and convince as many as you can to switch to organic. However, I now have an aversion to tillage around here, so if you can tell me how to stay ahead of the weeds and volunteers while staying zero till, I will listen intently. Please also feel free to tell us what kind of premium you are getting over the market so we can truly get interested. If you guys really think that going into the future that organic farming can feed the world then I hope you have the courtesy and smarts to not slander conventional grown grain.

[lakenheath]

The biggest myth in agriculture is that the only way to feed the world is through modern agriculture. Monsanto and company have done a wonderous job of pounding that myth home to us farmers. We are champions, heros to the world fighting hunger. We seem to have done quite well feeding North America. A raging epidemic of obesity, diabetes and cancer unlike any time in the history of the world. A "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico (one of many all over the world) the size of the state of New Jersey created from nitrates leaching from farm land into the Mississippi. Unuseable drinking water on farms across Canada for pregnant women due to high concentrations of nitrates.

Remember over the years pouring on the Nitrogen fertilizer only to have a week of pouring rain after crop emergance? Then weeks later seeing signs of nitrogen deficiancy in your crop? Where did all the N go? Down, way down, that is where. So we go out and top-dress to get that extra protein point we need, not realizing yield for that plant has already been basically established. But our local agrologist told us to do it, so what the hell is another $10.00 and acre.

I am not saying, go organic. Or don't fertilize. I am just saying we have to be aware of what we are doing. We can't quit cold turkey, but we have to keep our minds open for the future.

And, by the way, Silverback. Many organic farmers are basically no-till. A true organic aproach will build the growing capicity of you soil faster than any conventional practice going today. And there are very proven methods of weed control, but many of them take a patience and skill. Like Jman said any fool can farm today. As long as you get on you land in a decent time, soil test and get the right fertilizer blend, get an agrologist to tell you what chemical you need to spray, mix the chemical correctly and spray in the proper window you are set. It is not rocket science, just look at what all your neighbours are doing. That right, the same damn thing. And guess what, bitching about the same damn things. And then guess what, doing the same damn thing next year.

[Vader]

Silverback, what kind of paranoia is this? Who is slandering conventionally grown grain?

Premiums? Organic flax is worth between 18 and 25.00 per bushel. That seems to be 3 to 4 times conventional.

Organic barley according to Parsley is $9.00 which is also 3 to 4 times conventional. (Although I have not seen that price on barley myself).

Three year transition, well kind of. Actually 36 months since last application of chemicals/fertilizer. For example. If you sprayed post-emerge in July 2005, then anything that you harvest after July 2008 can be certified organic with OCIA. So unless you sprayed pre-harvest in 2005, you could plant clover and a cover crop in 2006, plow it down in 2007 and grow a cerified organic crop in 2008. You have five years during which you are not required to have your whole farm organic. You do need to have a plan for your whole farm to become organic by the sixth year (if you are with OCIA). So you can experiment for the next five years before deciding to commit to organic.

You could be farming 100 quarters of land and you could simply choose to try a couple of quarters of organic to "test the water".

I am not an organic evangelist!! I could care less about organic consumers or feeding the world. I just want to reduce my risk exposure and sell my produce at a profit.

[silverback]

Good info - thanks.

Surely I am not the only one who hears the talking heads on TV/Radio who spout the dangers and warnings of the conventional grown grain? I hear it almost once a week that everyone should be eating organic food and that us farmers are just blindly pouring chemicals on our crops. I am merely remembering the people like R-Calf who in order to promote their product, put the fear of God on the rest of the beef supply. There was no reason for the fear, but in order to raise their price they are willing to plant a seed of doubt into the very consumers they are after themselves.

How come nobody bit on my marketing comment??

[Jman]

Silverback: Just contact one of the certifying organic orgainizations, they would be happy to give you a list of organic buyers. As with organic production, organic marketing does require a little more time and research, but its not "rocket science".

[lakenheath]

I thought Vader might take the bait there Silverback. I will let him have at that one. I am still a stong believer in the power of numbers when it comes to agriculture. Sadly, we as farmers, have absolutely no idea how to harness this power, so we let a few ding-dongs who run the CWB do it for us. We have the right idea, but sadly it is completely failing us right now.

[FarmRanger]

Just curious, how is it possible to be organic without tillage?

[silverback]

That's exactly what I am wondering. If it takes 3 years to be certified after a preharvest glyphos, what kind of quackgrass level can I expect in year 4 without tillage. I don't know about you guys, but quackgrass is the mother of all yield loss on our farm. Before roundup it was tillage, tillage, tillage to deal with it. Thanks for the help.

[TOM4CWB]

Silverback;Farmranger:

WE MUST find a weed killer that doesn't involve tillage to make an organic system work.

The development of soil and preservation of the environment need a no till solution... as this is the way our soils were developed in the first place.

Now, who will work on and develop a new system that does not involve the spraying of chemicals.

Electrical stimulation of seeds to make them all germinate at the same time?

A light based system, possibly lazer based to kill weeds?

What will be the next system to harness a new weed killer?

[parsley]

Happy New Year everyone.

Been on the east coast of the good old USA. Good food and good people.

We went organic because we need to sell high priced grain into profitable markets. Markets that pay cash. Americans are the best to deal with in the world. Same language and linked transportation and borders. Great people.

We can not live like we want to, on the present conventional prices, I might add.

We sold brown flax in November for $23.50/bu. We augered it on the truck. Buyer paid cleaning and freight. Gold flax will sell for more.

We are not interested in "feeding the world". We have only three months to grow crops while many countries can grow grain year round.

Parsley

[dalek]

Tom4CWB: Being a computer science grad, I still keep up on some of the technology. They're fiddling with nanorobotics with the idea that they can build robots the size of insects so that you can scatter a handful of them into a field and they'll be programmed to recognize the difference between crop and weeds so they can cut off the weeds while leaving the desired plants to grow. They can work day and night through the whole growing season. Not being done on any scale with crops YET but with the advances they're making with nanotechnology in medicine, etc., it'll happen in my lifetime. Of course, I'm only 30.

[lakenheath]

Whe you guys say no-till, do you mean seeding with a disc opener or are you talking one pass seeding. I guess what I am asking is whether or not seeding with sweeps (like 11' sweep on 9' spacing) in considered no till.