Who Controls Grain Handling?

[Vader]

incognito,

When it comes to the single desk, it is all or nothing. In the nothing scenario the CWB will have to evolve to become a grain company or as I said in my opening post be at the complete mercy of its competitors.

How long will the CWB have to establish a capital base and acquire assets? Where will that capital base come from?

Obviously the money will have to come either from farmers, the government or private investors. How much and how long will it take for the CWB to be a viable option in an open market?

[silverback]

Maybe you should have been planning for the day that Western Canadians actually made a difference in this country and decided to make things work for themselves! Obviously you never thought the gravy train would end. This industry has been dying for years and according to you we should just keep doing the same thing. Well, either we do something different or we will just seed it all to grass. Maybe we should go organic and drive that price down? How would that strike ya?

[parsley]

Vader, when you say things like, "When it comes to the single desk, it is all or nothing", it is so silly, because you know full well that presently, all the EMFA feed grains bypass the single desk, Ontario's grain bypasses the single desk, registered seed bypasses the single desk, and on and on.

Thousands of bushels bypass the single desk.

You full well know the Board is only responsible for marketing what is OFFERED to it.

And so all or nothing is a your myth.

Getting back to your question, "How much more money will I make after the CWB is gone?"

I presume you are musing about a government job.

I presume you'll be hoping for a strong Liberal win in the election.

Parsley

[Incognito]

Well its 2:15 a.m.; our 10 month old daughter is just starting to sleep thru the night and what do we do? Go out today and buy a 9 week old dog... DUH!

RE the all or nothing approach. IF after all these years the rapport and support is not there from your loyal customers, that you couldnt not maintain them in a dual market environment, is not saying much for the goodwill established over the years.

Re timing: I think the CWB will get the same amount of time that farmers had to adapt to the WGTA going down the tubes - 8 months from the announcement to the reality.

IF the family farm had to adapt that quickly, i see no reason that the CWB, with all the years of goodwill built up, the best sales team, the best BOD, the best wheat, the best grading system, the best protein and the best record of defending the family farm, be possibly scared of going head-to-head with a grain company.

Or is it maybe that those same companies now complete 85% of the sales and the sales are actually THEIR customers and the goodwill is owned by the same companies not the CWB.

Its been 10 years since I've seen company sales stats- and alot can change in 10 years.

IN 5 years, i have a wife, two kids and a frikkin dog...

I don't buy into the "all or nothing" theory. As I've said previous, if the barley experiment would have been allowed to pass, you wouldnt be in this mess today. And where are the people who enacted that strategy today?
not in this business...

think about that this Sabbath!

[TOM4CWB]

Vader;

We have a transportation system with capacity limitations;

How much extra does it now cost non-board grains because the CWB is somewhat inflexible and difficult to work with?

Is the cup half full, or half empty?

If grain co's had contractual obligations to fill a boat on a certain day, at a certain port, with specified quality... perhaps it could cost less system wide for the CWB to share the power... and help grain co's and farmers be a reliable supplier of all "designated area" western CDN grains?

[Vader]

parsley, parsley, parsley, never anything constructive. Just personal shots.

Tom, there may be some slippage, but by definition a single desk handles all the grain. That is all or nothing.

Good will comes in many forms.

Canadian grain has a brand. That depends on maintaining the variety registration system and the grading system. How long will that suit the multi-national grain companies? Or will they want a more open american system? The CWB has been working very hard to develop its brand. You can now see the CWB logo on many products around the world that are made from Canadian grain. Companies like ADM do not engage in "branding" of american wheat because a competitor like Cargill might benefit. So there goes a lot of "good will".

Customers of the CWB have come to rely on a package of services. Some of those services depend on the size of the operation. In an open enviroment where the CWB only represented a portion of the trade it could no longer make the type of supply committments that it does today. Will that continue to suit the purposes of those customers. Probably not. They will simply move on. More "good will" gone.

If the volume of grain handled by the CWB shrinks then staff cuts will be required. In this new environment will every one of the CWB's employees remain loyal? This is highly unlikely. After all they have families and responsibilites. Perhaps their needs would be better served moving over to the competition. Perhaps they could start completely new companies and focus on some portion of the business where they had particular expertise. Much of the customer loyalty depends on the individual relationships with staff. Much of this will be gone. Lot's more "good will" gone.

How much "good will" can the CWB lose and still be recognizable as the CWB.

This is no slippery slope. This is "all or nothing".

I would suggest that the only people who are scoffing at this idea are those who simply do not care, do not understand, or are angry enough that they actually want the complete demise of the CWB. Those same people will say that I am fear mongering. For the rest of you out there I give you one consolation. Regardless of what happens, it happens to all of us. Perhaps if we recognize the severity of the situation we can regroup and form a new organization which will give farmers that market power which we so much need to survive.

There will be survivors. Some will be niche marketers like parsley. Some will be large players with lots of money like Tom. Many of us will transition to become employees of the multinationals, much like the Tyson chicken farmers in the US. Many will exit the industry, and although this has been happening since we first broke the land the process may accelerate.

Silverback, you talk about the day when farmers will make something happen for themselves. Are you talking everyone for themselves or are you talking about a co-operative model. If you are talking about everyone for themselves like parsley and tom then you are playing a dangerous game of musical chairs. If you are talking about a co-operative model then you are talking about re-inventing either the prairie pools or the CWB. Would it not be better to work with the existing CWB and make it better?

[TOM4CWB]

Vader;

You said:

"Tom, there may be some slippage, but by definition a single desk handles all the grain. That is all or nothing."

The CWB and it's directors are negligent; if they take the stand Rod Flaman took above.

The vast majority of trade would wide has a farm co-operative tied into the marketing chain; at some point... with OUT a monopoly.

Vader the CWB simply points out they are CHICKEN to prove the point they are progressive well managed marketers.

If the CWB IS NOT a well managed marketer... then who will even miss the CWB in five years?

Isn't it time the CWB WOKE UP?

[TOM4CWB]

Ag trade without monopolies;

The CWB,
The AWB,


I hope You get the point Vader.

[agstar77]

Hey T4 are you also for getting rid of the monopoly our two railways have over grain movement or is that okay? are you satisfied with their service ? If not will you set up your own transport system to compete with them? This is basically what you are saying when you want to get rid of the CWB. There will be a new monopoly , grain company "A" or grain company "B" . If you think they will treat you better, then you also believe in the tooth fairy. They might however contribute to your new private healthcare insurance that you will soon need. lol

[charliep]

Has anyone thought about a CWB in a more open market? What would the transition look like that would give the CWB the highest probability (not guarantee) of survival? Allow a certain amount of grain to be marketed outside the CWB (10 % or a 2 mln tonnes as an example)? Allow niche marketers (would need to be defined)to market directly to customers? Move certain commodities (eg. barley) outside the CWB system first?

What CWB services would farmers use in an open marekt? What relationships would the CWB have with the grain handlers and railways? Does the CWB in fact have to own assets? How much money in a contingency fund and how financed?

Don't see changes come quickly regardless of outcome tomorrow so there is lots of time to ask these questions and to come up with solutions. Vader - I think the CWB should be prepared to discuss/look for feedback in an open/transparent system.

[Incognito]

Vader:

I'm not picking on you personally, so please don't take it as such - you are the only one with spheres to post here while the rest of the BOD read the posts but won't get involved. This site is bookmarked by more bureaucrats than you can ever imagine at the Sir John Carling building.

One question and one question only:

Does anyone care of the sustainability of the farm?

Throw away all the rhetoric, all the diversity and animosity and that should be the underlining theme. That and that alone.

The farm is mired in red ink, negative net farm incomes and spiralling costs.

Would a million dollars be better spent on an educatonal process to teach farmers how to use the CWB marketing tools available to them rather than a project in China?

Do the multinationals (i despise that word - if you have an office in China are you not multi-national as well) have the farm's best interest at heart? Does the CWB?

Give me ONE solid example from either side that you may offer.

We've brought this industry to the lowest common denominator - we need to regroup and start over - and if that is new gen co-operatives then so be it. Everyone is fighting for their own little piece of the pie; however, in doing so, there arent even crumbs at the farm level.

If the industry margins werent so despicable in CWB grains, Vader, I may tend to agree with your single desk seller rant. But how is it that the CWB stands by and lets it occur?

Some one mentioned it within the last few days in here: divide and conquer. Its an Esmond Jarvis tactic, a Gordon Machej tactic and I have little proof that it does not exist today.

Until such time that all farmers band together; east and west, and excericise true market power, this industry is headed to hell in a handbasket - faster.

23 dollar margins in wheat; 85 dollar canola crush margins is pathetic and whats left at the farm level...

Vader, we have had words on the ADM's of the world in the past on here; what sets you apart from them as to what you are doing for the farm level?

Whats stopping you from becoming a fully integrated corporation like the AWB and please don't tell me the Act, the government or bureaucrats, because with as much effort as the CWB has taken to keep the status quo on changing it for the betterment of farmers, the changes would be completed long ago and no one would be looking at a January 23 election result or an April 30 WTO result wondering what will happen. The future should be mapped out. Thats what a good corporation does.

Farmers expect the ADM's and Cargills of the world to be greedy - they don't expect it from within. For the same reasons you have sought out alternative markets because the current manner you were farmining was not sustainable, every other farmer is feeling the same.

Thomas Miekle of Oil World recently spoke in Saskatoon and said that the short term outlook for canola was not positive but the longer term was. I had an opportunity to ask what his def of short and long term was later in the day. Short term - 6 to 18 months. Long term - 3-5 years. My answer to Thomas was the financial situation is so ugly at the farm level that short term is tomorrow and long term is seeding.

One thing i will agree with you, the WTO is not working.

The only way farmers can get a level playing field is to subsidize to the same manner that the US and the EU are with outright subsidies, ethanol subsidies and bio-diesel subsidies. I put mis-guided faith in the WTO for too long. 2013 is light years from here.

Regardless of the outcome of the CWB, farmers cannot continue down this path. IF in fact the CWB does represent 70,000 farmers in western Canada, what has been done to insure the viablity of the farm other than fight for the single desk?

If it is a one dimensional fight, how is that any different than any one fighting to end the monopoly? A singular purpose with the outcome still not in the best farm interest at heart.

In a Lorne Hehn speech on the Continental Barley Market; one of the CWB's wordsmiths, coined the phrase: "It's time to walk the talk."

From a farmer's point of view the best answer to this industry may be to let it implode and start over; otherwise the divide and conquer theme will last for another 25 years.

Best,
LW

[Incognito]

Vader do you work for the CWB??