Energy the facts?

[ianben]

Is there anywhere or anybody with the facts on the economics of both wheat for ethanol and **** for biodiesel.

I would like a simple graph if possible showing the value of oil against wheat/ ****.

I am sure if we where equal in size to these people investing in these energy plants we would do this calculation, and price so we both prospered.

I think as farmers we need to know these figures in order that the plants get built and then prosper but also to know the real value of our product to them.

I do feel we sometimes under sell premium products McDonalds and Nexera oil for example.

[dalek]

Don't know but as an aside, last Wednesday Ontario Hydro did a test burn of a load of wheat bran at Nanticoke to see how it does at replacing coal.

[pilllypilsner]

my brother is an enginear for a company that is dabbling in bio-diesel and i asked him wheres the money ethanol or bio-diesel.he said ethanol because there is something like a 1.7 net energy
return as oppose to a 1.2 for bio-diesel.the next thing he said which supprised the hell out of me was that oil was 1.5.I am not 100% on these numbers but you get the gist.personally
i see all of this as a reverse efficency and am not going to put any money into it.the ONLY solution to the energy/enviroment problem is a nuclear
and hydrogen combination.one pound of uranium=3,000,000pounds of coal.this fact would explain the price action of uranium.now that peak oil is here or right around the corner there is no time left to do anything.why didnt anyone listen to hubbert 30 years ago.

[clancey]

There is a lot of underlying controversy about the economics of bio-fuels. They argue the current expansion would not take place without government subsidy to billion dollar companies and that the industry needs to have oil prices stay high to make sense in the future.

My son, who is in 3rd year mechanical engineering, says you need to burn more ethanol to have the same effect as gasoline. This is good for farmers, bad for consumers. He says bio-diesel is a more effective fuel. He also likes fuel cells and is joining a research project at UBC for the summer.

[wd9]

Social energy policies are not really about efficiency and direct comparison to petrochemical equivalents. It is about alternative energy sources, the need to move away from reliance on oil and gas. Subsidies are the investment vehicle to spur on better innovation, improvements in ethanol production, lowering NOX in biodiesel thru innovation to be better than diesel.

Innovation, pollution, the environment, reliance on other countries oil, public policy, public hope in better energy sources - these things just don't fit into excel spreadsheets as well as you may think.

At a buck a gallon US subsidy on biodiesel, a 50 million dollar 30 million gallon per year plant gets paid off quickly. 50% ROI, something for the spreadsheet. Not because biodiesel is obviously economically sound or can replace oil, but is the hope of better days ahead for the people of the country.

That is why the US and Europe have built facilities with tremendous support from the public - and Canada, well, keeps carefully counting its three beans and is afraid to plant one, because, well, we would then have 2 beans wouldn't we.

[seedsman]

Heard a presentation this winter from a partner in an outfit that is presently constructing a biodiesel plant near Lethbridge. They plan to start with tallow (which I think is almost free) and then to expand using off grade vegetable oil. When questioned about the relationship between canola price and a barrel of oil, the speaker didn't have an exact answer, but it appeared that US$60/barrel for oil would compare to canola at somewhat less that $5.00/bu. The discussion then moved into plant breeding, and the development of high oil ****seed varieties specifically for biodiesel. The general consensus was that canola as we know it today, would not likely be an economical feed stock for biodeisel.

[MBFarmer1]

Reading this thread with interest. I find it interesting when peopel say the biofuels industry will only work if the price of oil stays high at 60 per barrel. Is ther anyone out there that thinks oil will long term decline in price back to an equilibrium price of under 60 ? I for one doubt it.

[Incognito]

The irony of Canada:

Agriculture Canada is developing high oil content canola and are well into the program.

Canada not having a sufficient amount of bio-diesel facilities, exports the raw product to the EU and the US .....AGAIN.

[wd9]

Nor has the policy to promote the development of the facilities - let alone the crush capacity to achieve it. It isn't about the price, it is about the production incentive and which country will get the value added portion because of the incentive. It's about whether the mandate is on the total renewable energy or seperate mandates for gasoline and diesel.

[ianben]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like you guys are short on facts too. Here in UK lots of talk and promises on plants for both biodiesel using our standard 00 canolas and ethanol plants using feed wheat.
Facts and figures though are very thin on the ground and mostly contradictory.
Some say ethanol will yeild the most energy/acre and is also more cost effective if high value products, wheat germ etc. are extracted first.
Others say canola for bio-diesel is the way easy low cost set-up but quantity and then value of meal is an unknown.

I cant find anyone who can give me even a basic break down of either process.

1tonne Wheat/canola - X$ processing cost = ? litres ethanol/biodiesel.

Back in 95 I saw a ethanol from wheat plant in Manitoba.

Are there any fact and figures there?

[haroldj]

Part of the confusion over the mileage (Kilometreage???) and ethanol requiring more fuel to run the same amount of distance as gas is that ethanol is blended with gas. You can blend up to 10% ethanol into gas and still be able to run vehicles. After 10% you need to start using converters. The flex vehicles using either gas or higher ethanol blends or the vehicles that run on E15 (15% blend)do get lower miles per gallon (kilometres per lire??) than straight gas. In the US there is a huge price difference between the higher blends of ethanol and the conventional gas or 10% gas/ethanol blends to make up for the difference in the fuel consumption.

[GALAXIE500]

Hey Fellas , I thought this website would interest you , seen as how there is a lot of talk about biofeuls and the cost of energy. take a look at www.himacresearch.com" it is very interesting reading, and let other people know about the site as well.