Life After CWB

[parsley]

Can you imagine the disappearance of corporations in our country? Big or small? they are wealth creators. Telling wealth creators in any country that you don't want them or need them and that you want to get rid of them is as silly as a ram's tongue-quivering ritual. Especially when our country's political flunkies carry their hat and empty $$$bag in hand to Wall Street with predictable repetitivity to beg funds to service a national debt that is a out of control. We need lots of wealth creators and we need industrious people and we need lots of smart people. And we need to treat them well and if we don't, we will have fiscal refugees.

Farmers have traditionally been wealth creators, and they are changing and forging ahead at an amazing pace., and they are becoming noticibly intolerant of the agricultural so-called expertise and services that are provided for them. Or forced upon them. Often by those who were not capable of running their own farm. Many "professionals' are being replaced by digital servants and there will be many technical innovations that will further displace employment. It is the bureaucrat who has to fret more about the future than the farmer, because the farmer and the corporations have a common-interest....to create wealth. rosco recognizes that corporations innately understand that they cannot kill the goose.

You want more farmer-controlled Boards? We have a CWB model perfect for your world Chas,not mine, where farmer-elected Boards wield unlimited fistfulls of farmer dollars to 'manage' a monstrosity that serves few. Certainly not farmers. And that Chas, is why the CWB is dismantling. CWB regulations have traditionally complicated and suppressed commerce, and we have generationally observed that helping farmers produce wealth is not part of the CWB's overall plan. One could even say that the CWB very often makes the market illegal and has made the law look ridiculous. The only price discovery the CWB makes is whatever price the Board dreams up at a given particular moment. Pooling is for those denied licenses by the CWB on Whim Day. lrhm in another thread can tell you about the kind of silence he gets when a CWB bureaucrat gets hit with some tough questions. No accountability.

I want to do business with those I seek out , that are right for me. I'm concerned with wealth creation, while CharlieP frets about wealth sharing His idea of a fair price and my idea of a fair price are about as easy to establish as determining what is a beautiful woman.

Jane Jacobs writes the most interesting books and she makes the point that we should shift from the belief in natural uniformity to a belief in natural diversity She says that "Diversity itself is the essence of excellence . Diversity has dogged persistence and mysterious vitality" She also advises "With uniform or centralized control, improvements in human affairs come hard, and eventually come not at all".
My grandmother used to call it "live and let live".
Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

The CWB has been presented to us in three stages.

First the voluntary CWB 1935-1943, was unfortunately killed by the 2nd World War.

Then the second CWB was controlled by the government from 1943-1998, and was obviously not terribly interested in meeting our needs.

Now the new revised improved farmer controlled CWB, 1999-?, is still lacking in promised performance!

Are we satisfied yet? All indications are the CWB is making just about everyone angry!

Well I think it is time for a joke.

One day we met a beautiful lady and she was complaining that she had just been married for the third time, but was very disappointed because none of her marriages had been consummated.

We asked why?

Well she was really in love with her first husband, but just as they were leaving the church, he tripped and fell on the front church steps, smashed his head and died instantly.

She kind of rushed into the second marriage, and unfortunately on the wedding night found out her groom was gay and had no interest in having anything any thing to do with satisfying her needs. She finally left him after it was obvious that he was more interested in his boyfriends than her.

The third Marriage was well planned and really sounded wonderful. Her guy was great, and courted her and really convinced her everything would be perfect if she married him.

But,

On their wedding night, what happened, he just sat on the edge of the bed and told her how good things were going to be!

Talk is cheap.

Why would any Canadian grain farmer be the least bit interested in exporting outside the CWB, if the single desk even remotely performed as they claim it can.

A voluntary union between two partners, who want to be together, can be the only lasting fulfilling relationship that will survive the test of time! This was the original intent of the CWB Act, isn’t it about time we realize a voluntary CWB is the only one that is fair and will work in the long term!

[chas]

Parsley
I knew I would have problems with you. You speak in huge complexies about a simple marketing problem. If you have all the answers to the open market, sell the farm and move to the USA, open a consulting firm and advise farmers there how to avoid the farm crisis by pricing on the open market or is the CWB to blame for their problem too. I done want to meet the big boys in the grain buisness head on I want to side step them on the way to sustainability. I don't want to distroy corportate America but would like to put a leash on them to keep them from continuely picking my pocket and failing to spread the wealth that they are making for all of us. Parsley you are a prime example, in an age steeped in propaganda about the rugged individual, the miracle of the markets, and the promise of deregulation and privatization that you have lost your way and turned your back on the common sense known to our grandfathers-that we must work together against powerful opponents. I think you misintrepreted the meaning of your grandmothers statement of "live and let live." I think the website www.fna.ca explains the direction we should be headed into to gain respectability in the agri-industry. Good luck in the USofA my learnt friend. Chas

[parsley]

That very thing is happening....the next generation potential farmer-child gets that very message over and over Chas. If you don't like it, leave. Well, they don't like IT. IT is the money. IT is the lack of having control . IT is peer groups that say if you don't like the status quo, leave. IT is trying to make them accept the false premise that everyone's economic contributions are equal. Next generation farmers are leaving in droves. They've trained in other areas where they can get jobs, and the smartest have done just what you are advocating. Leave . Other countries snap them up and are grateful to get Canada's bightest, educated farm children with a good work ethic. And you say leave. Now that's planning.

[TOM4CWB]

I would like to throw another log on the fire.

In Ontario the Wheat Board there was told originally that they needed over 2/3 majority in favor of the monopoly for it to continue. I beleive this is only fair.

Why?

Because we now have the situation where 40% of the farmers vote in CWB elections and 60% are either too mad to vote or could care less. This means that the 60% is not worried about the monopoly continuing!

Add the 52% of the 40% that voted for marketing choice, and presto we have an overwhelming 81% of western Canadians that do not support a manditory monopoly.

This is why the Alliance Party could run anti CWB platforms without worry that it would hinder their chances of being elected!

The fact is, a voluntary CWB is what the average western Canadian farmer considers most reasonable.

[chas]

Your reading lots into to what I say Parsley. Check this website www.fna.ca
I have two sons farming with me that done have your attitude and several neighbors who like the CWB. Don't verbally distroy yourself. I think you will complain about anything, look in the mirror for the solution.

[parsley]

Chas, you say that you want to put a leash on big corporations, they make lots of money and they are not sharing the money. In the feed industry, the CWB allows "corporate America" to bypass pooling. Tom Halpenny won't address that. Are you and your neighbor Board supporters in favor of not pooling the wheat and barley profits from the feed industry? You seem to want farmers to pool through the CWB but corporations to not pool through the CWB. Then you criticsize corporations for not pooling. Then you want more boards patterned after the CWB to do more of the same. Please be clear. Do you think the CWB should continue allowing the feed mills to buy millions of bushels of wheat and barley directly from farmers, not pooling, and then issue no-cost export licenses to the mills. Alternately, do you think that the CWB should continue to tell "pasta" farmers that the potential pasta plant can buy their durum on the farm, but after they have manufactured the pasta, the CWB should continue to deny all export licenses unless they go through the pooling? I'm interested in what your mirror reflects.
Parsley

[charliep]

I should learn to leave this issue alone but I have to crawl back into the debate.

Leaving the issue of fairness alone (I'm an economist with two hands - on the one hand and then on the other hand so I always have trouble with this concept).

I'm going to stick my neck and suggest feed mill trade is an example of something that works in the current evironment and a good thing.

Reasons for this:

1) These feed mills are buying more grain in the local cash markets creating more competition/sales opportunties and likely improving price.

2) Feed mills are able to operate at higher capacity bringing down their cost of the mill. The mill also is able to employ more people in the community with all benefits of having a mill in Canada versus across the border.

3) Margins may be better on this feed than that processed for the domestic market and contribute to better profits for the mill - I don't know. Is this bad? Your reply is that you would like access to US feed mills to make sure you have access to competitive markets so I acknowledge and say no more.

4) This program has been in place for a while and no one (to my knowledge) across the border has challenged it. This is likely because Canada is providing a valuable service in terms of providing complete feeds in areas that don't have access to these products otherwise in their own local market.

I realize that you fight is over direct to the US market outside the CWB buyback program and you are highlighting the fact that some groups have in your eyes priviledged access that no else enjoys. My comment on the other side is that two wrongs don't necessarily make a right. In some sense, thus program is a working model that may suggest other alternatives for dealing with US sales.

Thoughts?

[parsley]

CharlieP...I think Chas is more capable of answering my question from the farmer's perspective. Chas, because he has a real vested interest here, has an opportunity to indicate if he as a farmer, approves of the following double standard that's clearly in place....

Tthe CWB secretly issues export licenses to multi-nationals, and the CWB openly denies licenses to the producer trying to value-add.

This was my question to Chas:
Do you think the CWB should continue allowing the feed mills to buy millions of bushels of wheat and barley directly from farmers, not pooling, and then issue no-cost export licenses to the mills. Alternately, do you think that the CWB should continue to tell "pasta" farmers that the potential pasta plant can buy their durum on the farm, but after they have manufactured the pasta, the CWB should continue to deny all export licenses unless they go through the pooling?

We're dealing with a principle here CharlieP, and you should be able to recognize that, but I'll respond to your comments after Chas makes his response. I would appreciate Chas, if you will share your thoughts with us.
Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie, I like your logic on no cost licenses for feedmills, now if you would extend it to grain farmers we would have our problem solved!

It works like this!

I will sell my wheat outside the CWB, making sure it will not have a Canadian Grain Act Grade name when it is sold. This will decrease the amount of wheat the needs to be marketed through the CWB.

Now with a reduced supply, the CWB can concentrate on selling into the higher value markets that it says it can extract a premium from.

Presto, we have freedom of marketing. The CWB should be happy, its markets are maintained and saved for the farmers who want to sell through the CWB!

This is no different than your logic on feedmillls, is it?

[chas]

Parsley and Tom4cwb
Charlie thanks for the support your point is good but I think this answer is likely closer to being right. If a prepared feed such as barley or wheat, which under the trade rules established by the two Governments(USA & Canada} stipulates what maxium percentage of grain can be in the mix, would indicate to me that it is so it can be easily identified by export officials as being a processed feed that is designated to an end user in the USA. Where a whole grain shipment could end up in their export system which is heavily subsidized. Therefore American taxpayers would be sudsidizing grain that was not grown in the USA. It has and will happen again if the feed processing is not enforced. Charlie explained why there is no buyback for economic and competative reasons for feed mills to export more grain. So you see parsley the rules are to protect farmers in each country its not somethink the CWB is punishing us with, its caused by the fact that we are two different countries. AS far as the pasta plant is concerned maybe the plant could be rebated for the freight portion of CWB price, being the freight portion would end up in the pool account anyway when its not used to pay the railroad. The plant should not pay anymore than it has to and farmers should not receive less, fair I think. This is my first shot at the pasta problem excuse me if the solution is so simple. Tom I hope this helps clarify your question also.I think as farmers we whine, complain, be negative about our problems, ask unanswerable questions and blame others for are problems when he should be spending are time developing positive solutions that would benfit us all in a more stable and sustainable farming buisness. Parsley the only way we are going to beable to truck grain south is to declar war on the USA and then surrender to them before they can fire a shot. Chas

[parsley]

CharlieP...I said that I would get back to you. Let's pretend!

Farmers got together and built and own a durum pasta plant. (A greedy bunch that wanted to pay their taxes, and buy fertilizer) Let's pretend that the CWB were forced by the courts to issues no-cost export licenses to those pasta-durum farmers .I've used your very arguments....quoted with PASTA substituted...... to defend my case against the farmers down the road that say export licenses should never have been be issued to those greedy farmers:
Remember, These are your arguments CharlieP,

"I'm going to stick my neck and suggest PASTA mill trade is an example of
something that works in the current evironment and a good thing.

Reasons for this:

1) These PASTA mills are buying more durum in the local cash markets creatin more competition/sales opportunties and likely improving price.

2) The PASTA mill also is able to employ more people in the community with all benefits of having a mill in Canada versus across the border.

3) Margins for PASTA-PLANT FARMER OWNERS may be better on this PASTA than the raw DURUM offerred in the export market and contribute to better profits for the province- I don't know. Is this bad?"


4)PASTA plants that export have never been in place in the Designated Area(to my knowledge)..........


and everyone across the border quit their noisy cheering. This is likely because Canada is not "unloading" durum- a valuable premium commodity, There is finally some more competition now that Western Canada has pasta plants.

Surely you will recognize CharlieP,( if logic is the father of premise), that the following premises should be interchangeable:

If
the CWB grants Export licenses for large feed mills
the CWB must grant export licenses for farmer pasta mills.
Parsley

PS
Chas, I studied the web page as you asked. I'll get back to you. And thanks for replying.