Life After CWB

[parsley]

Chas, I made good my promise.
Let's examine what you say Chas and compare it to what the CWB has done. You tell me WHY the CWB is doing what it is doing and you make the point that wheat and barley going to the USA must be identifiable so that the American taxpayer isn't supporting Canadian grain...

Look at the Creston-Wyndell area of British Columbia. While it was still part of the designated Area, the farmers in that area asked for no-cost export licenses from the CWB. And got them. The farmers in that area, for years, routinely applied for export licenses and the CWB granted them just like they do for the folks in Ontario and Quebec. A few years ago, when the CWB legislation was opened up and changes made to it, that area was quietly taken out of the Designated Area. But when they were still in the DA, farmers there got no-cost export licenses granted by the CWB . Interesting isn't it Chas?

How did/does the USA identify grain that comes from Canadian farmers? Well, who gets export licenses? Canadian Creston-Wyndale grain was certainly in the US system , and not identifiable, but the CWB said "give them export licenses". What about Alberta barley growers, not identifiable, who applied for an export license? Denied. Ontario grain is not identifiable, is sold and mixed in the US system. The CWB said "give them export licenses". Quebec grain is not identifiable, sold and mixed in the US system. The CWB said "give them export licenses". One grain that is clearly identifiable is seed producers and they export to the US ....and The CWB said "give them export licenses"! Another grain that has a documented audit trail is organic grain, but the CWB said "deny them licenses". Grant, deny, grant, deny.

Let's imagine the CWB were in charge of voting instead of issuing licenses ... how would you ever figure out what the criteria for voting would be? Sometimes grain-for-food exported is granted a license and other times denied.
Some identified grain is granted an export license, other identified grain is denied. Imagine the CWB were in charge of voting instead of issuing licenses ... how would you ever figure out what the criteria for voting would be?
You say the rules are there to protect farmers, Chas, but to protect WHICH farmers Chas? How many other groups have been issued no-cost export licenses in the backrooms of the CWB that the Chas's of the Designated Area don't even know exist! To be a birdie on the wall to hear what the terms involved in the negotiations were!

You gave me a WHY the CWB does as it does, Chas, but you didn't really give me an idea where you stand on the big issues. What are the principles you stand for?

If you support the concept of pooling, (one of the pillars of the CWB), you should be able to easily agree, and indeed promote at every opportunity, that the grain that the feed mills buy, should be bought through the CWB,and the profits pooled with all farmers. Only under that condition (for a supporter of the pooling system), would export license be issued for feed. I didn't feel you fully answered that in my question #1. .......... Should CWB allow corporations to buy directly from farmers, NOT POOL and then get no-cost export licenses ? ....but I am concluding from you, that you are generally quite pleased that the feed Muli-nationals are not pooling , and that pooling only matters to you on certain days. Or months. Or on full moons Or with certain groups.

I also am concluding from you , that the CWB should continue to deny all export licenses to every farmer unless they go through pooling . Including the registered seed grower. And Ontario growers. (I should tell you though that those farmers will get pretty mad if they get their no-cost export licenses yanked)

I am concluding from you, that you approve of the CWB making deals behind closed doors, because this is how you put a leash on Corporate America and teach them a lesson they'll never expect or regret.

I am concluding from you, that if elected farmers on the Board are kept in the dark about any secret dealmaking, as was the case with the Export Manufactured Feed Agreement, that it's ok with you. Just as some farmers should definitely be denied export licenses, some elected farmer Board Members should be denied information.

And I also conclude, from what you have provided, that you would like to see all other commodity marketing modelled after the CWB.

If my conclusions need correcting, please do so clearly Chas . I've had a few problems understanding Tom Halpenny and CharlieP and I seem to have to repeat questions over and over. CharlieP shows a lot of patience, and finally answered one question so I could understand, but Tom Halpenny must have quit his job.

I did look at the website you suggested , and I think voluntary purchase-pooling is a great idea Chas. If we agree , does that mean I'm getting some common sense?

Your penpal, Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Chas,

I find it interesting that you blindly beleive that the CWB is actually trying to help you market your grain.

My experience is that if I want to I can profit from the pooling account, and steal money directly from your final payment.

But, some of us do care about right and wrong. So I refuse to allow the CWB to buy me off.

Now I am in a real jam.

I must deal with a corrupt CWB, against my principals, and cannot market my own grain and leave your wallet alone.

I would only like the opportunity to be left alone, and if the CWB insists on cross transfering money through its wacky weird idea of social engineering, fine. But at least leave me alone, I do not appreciate being included in those who want to covet and steal from their neighbour!

Can you please give me this much?

[chas]

Parsley & Tom4CW
Parsley I'am sure there is a good explanation for the no cost licenses, an maybe it was supplying a niche market that USA had difficulty filling in an in time delivery and aggreements were allow. Parsley put the question to your elected farmer board member to get a satisfactory answer to those questions that you have. The CWB is operating with far to much government interfence but I'am sure our elected members will be more involved from now on in looking after are interest. Afterall our elected members are just getting their feet wet on the policies but yes you deserve an answer. A dual market or a completely open market will leave us to the vultures and no place to voice an opinion. The CWB has not been perfect but I had a cheque bounce dealing with open market companies. Think about what you could do if a grain company in another country stiffed you for your grain, there would likely be no recourse for you, in Canada the Canadian Grain Commission when to bat for me and I was paid within a week. I think the way the CWB is being realined it's the best course to take to gain some strenght in the market place. Governments won't let go because of food security and poltics will haunt us forever. Lets forgive the past as we can't prove anything now and try a poistive approach to a marketing board that handles all grain and oilseeds in Canada that are for domestic and export sales and done with alot more farmer control.
Tom4CWB
It sounds like you could lay crimial charges but hearsy and coffee shop rumors are not allowed into evidence. Accountablity is what we want on all issues but pricing, unless the other grain companies tell us what prices they are receiving at any given time.. I trust my elected member to the CWB to gain this information in confidence to look after my rights. The answer to a sable sustainable farm is a farmer contolled marketing board. Who can you trust. Trucking South is not going to happen unless American farmers also see that a marketing board is the only way producers can gain power over their industry. Color me CWB. You boys are starting to show signs of being poistive. but just a very small glimmer. Chas

[parsley]

Chas, I've got the good explanation you were asking about...... A whole load of CWB supporters...all farmers.... drove into Winnipeg stuffed in the box of a big grain truck , all shouting and demanding that the CWB staff "give those 'Corporate America' feed mills free export licenses".That's how they got them in the first place, maybe.

And by the way Chas, lots of farmers asked the CWB Directors what was going on about the EMFA, but mostly they 're like a bunch of mushrooms. None of them had even heard about the EMFA so they sure as heck can't explain. Maybe staff did though, and you will have a lot of pull with Tom Halpenny since you both approve of how the CWB shines up to the big mills. Get him to answer some of the questions about the CWB...after all, you've been stressing accountability several times, Chas.

Chas you really fit the profile of a typical CWB supporter to a T! You write a lot like halpenny and you have the same kind of reasoning as halpenny...... Tell you what, you ask him, on line, why the CWB isn't marketing all those millions of bushels of wheat and barley that the feed mills buy from the farmer. How come the CWB just refuses to pool all that grain? Put his feet to the fire. If you talk him into replying, and I get the big questions answered, I'll see if Agri-ville will forward you an anonymous surprise package because you've been a darn faithful penpal. Am I on, Chas?
Parsley
PS rosco, and Brigette and Tom4CWB, looks like we missed that trip to Winnipeg.

[chas]

Parsley talking to you is getting to be a habit.
I know your main concern is to beable to move your grain across the border South without a buyback from the CWB. If the board gave everybody a no cost license to move grain across the border I'll bet your advantaged market would dissappear in a hurry because SWP, cargil or Agricore or someone else would fill the market cheaper that I or you would want to do it for. Or more in likely some American farmer would shoot you for filling his market. I can over look the value added feedmill license but like you I can't ignore no cost license to other farms in Canada when the rest of us have to tow the mark with buyback. I must confess that I farm in the Camrose area of north central Alberta for me to cash in on markets South of the border are provided by trucking cost, so out of sight out of mind in this area. But don"t bogg yourself down with this question to much because I think you have hit a soft spot with the wheat board directors and they won't be embrassed again with their lack of knowledge on what is happening. Parsley give me a positive solution on how we should be marketing are grain. I have laid out my theory in Rural Issues in a letter I wrote to ValueChainFX its a lofty theory but in my mind it is the only way to create a sable and sustainable industry. Chas

[parsley]

Chas, don't confuse what I say for what you promote. I will make my position clear once again. And compare it to your world, colored CWB.

1. Parsley says....I want export licenses issued to farmers because I think farmers are valuable. Chas you are so worried about what your neighbor might get, you'd sooner see him go hungry than make a good sale and pay his banker. You refuse to give farmers licenses. (What about issuing export licenses to farmers within provinces, Chas? Is that horrifying, too? )

2. Parsley wants export licenses issued to corporations because I think corporations are valuable. Chas thinks they are greedy and need a leash. So Chas gives them free export licenses!

3. Chas believes in pooling , but Chas likes the feed mills to buy grain directly from the neighbor but NOT POOL that grain!

Chas, the Canadian Wheat Board has trained you well. You'd make a good director. And you'd get on staff for sure.

I'll read your theory later, but first I had to review the principles you stand for in this thread. You'll probably apply them to your next recommendations in Rural Issues.

Parsley

[parsley]

Extra note.....Chas could the CWB buy all the wheat and barley from the farmers, and THEN the feed mills could buy it from the CWB for exporting? Sure. (Then it would be pooled and wealth distributed like you want).
The big question for you Chas .......there was a deal made here...in the heart of the CWB. But who in the CWB?

Ask questions Chas! Who would gain from this? ( Not farmers! You say they gain by pooling.) Who swung this deal? What stakes were on the table? Stakes for whom?

Why was it kept a secret?

Interesting if those books were opened up.But they're locked up.

Those are important questions and if you don't ask them, Chas, you're not going to clear the air. You're gonna get more of the same dealmaking too, because the CWB counts on you being too much of a pansy to as..

Parsley

[chas]

Parsley
1. The USA government and their farmers would put a stop to no cost licenses to protect their market, you know that and I know that Parsley why keep asking for something that is not going to work. (NOT GOING TO WORK!). My neighbors are professional farmers they don't chase rainbows. If as a farmer you want to get the best deal in another country then we will have to become part of the country.
2. Corportations are fine parsley but if you don't rein them in they will take advantage of individual farmers. You keep twisting my faith in corportations to fit your likeness Parsley.
3.Feed grains should be pooled Parsley but because of the rugged individual that you are out in the free market, you removed it from the board because of greed. Allowing it to be trader on the commodities market where they are sure to look after Parsley's bottom line.
Trust in directors elected by farmers to over see our marketing agencies is the only way we can put stability of pricing into our industry. Your looking for pie in the sky Parsley.

[ianben]

I have been reading your messages with interest as I farm in the U.K.with no wheat board.We do however have subsidies as I am sure you are aware but it is still the price we recieve for grain which determines our profits.
I agree with Chas that the futures markets do us no favors and we dont do ourselves any either. We as farmers globally own all the wheat when it is harvested but because we think we are in competion with one another we are weak sellers and allow small percentages of over production to have ridiculous affects on price. I would rather sell 90% of what I produce at a profit than 100% at a loss. An OPEC type organization for grain which sets a minimum price or a percentage of production sold. We could even join OPEC its self I read the other day 3 tons of wheat has the same energy value as 1000 litres of oil. If we could create a stable market I think usage would increace buyers like to be able to plan ahead that was why they formed the futures markets and the middlemen just take a percentage anyway.
Suppliers, who some of you seem to think would rip us off, I think would also welcome such stability. They only make money when we do, it must be immposible to know how many tractors or combines to produce. They have to make hay when the sun shines no wonder we get stung. So how about it lets harness the internet and compete like the multi-national on anything BUT PRICE!!!!

[chas]

Ianben
Thanks Ianben I could not of said it better myself. Lets hope some more boys will get on side and see our positive solution to marketing. Some how we have got to convince American, European
and other farmers around the world that commodity markets and subsidizing are not the way to go. Thanks I needed some support. Chas

[AppMan]

I can not understand how some farmers can not understand the value of the product they are producing, all in a rush to pool and export and give the money to someone else. Our (not are) wonderful single desk has made sure no value adding goes on in the designated region, just look around. how many mills or processors do you have to deliver to. Look at the label of the next bundle of pasta you purchase, which by the way is one very popular product around the world, and I know it will not be Saskatchewan or Alberta or Manitoba based processor, it could be Italy but most likely Missouri, California or even North Dakota. That seems to tell me that this must be the regions where good quality durum is grown??? I guess North Dakota grows durum but not nearly as much as southern Sask and Alberta, I wonder why North Dakota has so many pasta plants and some producer owned, must be that corporate mentallity. Do farmers have any idea how much money they are leaving on the table with this pooled export mentallity. It is not millions, it is billions of dollars. So yes, lets just plug along with the pooling system and make sure no one makes any money here, after all they probably won't share it with the rest of us.

It is so discouraging to see an element out there that is so worried about his neighbour making a buck and not sharing it with the rest, I know better, I can read, I know who built the foundations of this country and who built the foundations of the USA. We need co-ops and we need corporations and we need the ability to pool if we so desire and we need the choice to do any of the above but make any one of them manditory and we have big problems.

[parsley]

Welome to the discussion ianben! So nice to have an England farmer's point of view.

Chas, you asked for a positive solution, but you can't let out the clutch if your engine isn't there or you don't get ahead. I'll begin with the basics. You need to get a sound direction coming out of your head, that you can keep referring to. Consistent. Logical.

I believe that one of the most important things that farmers can do in this changing world is to think clearly. Ideas are wealth. Your reasoning has to be sound and consistent. You need to build your set of principles, that you can live with. And that don't impose upon other people.

The kind of system that a quickly shrinking number of farmers want to work within, is one of conquest. That's what you advocate, Chas, a CWB system. Making people comply. Force. Jail. Fines. Policing. The CWB is famous for it's coercion in Canada, ianben. There was a farmer in Manitoba named Andy McMechan who sold his barley into the USA without a CWB export license. The barley was a kind the CWB does not even market themselves, so Andy trucked it over the border. They hauled Andy off to jail, shackled in chains in front of his family....a big Liberal government show of "who's boss". [The Minister of the CWB, Ralph Goodale, ( a Westerner!) arranged that one. ] And Andy spent months in jail for selling his own grain. The police raided another Manitoba family farm home in the middle of the night, the Derocher family.....and it goes on and on. This is in Canada ianben.

The government is very cocky about winning a few battles against a few farmers, but they've lost the war. And the West .

There is a one-way producer-trend moving like a lumbering freight-train away from the CWB and state marketing. Each carry "Vote-Anything-But -Liberal" cards.

These producers recognize the value of choice for all farmers; they simply want to trade wheat and barley and make their customers happy. The farmer who wants to make other producers comply, at any cost, using any method, to his way of thinking, is out of touch with the way the world is moving. Wars are not politically correct anymore. We can't afford jails and shackles are discomforting. Sue and threaten the railroads that we need to work with like the CWB does? They have more money.


And the farmers with this kind of "conquest-comply-jail attitude" are the ones who will be marginalized in the long run. Because, morally, this philosophy can't sustain. Live and let live, Chas.

A fellow by the name of Thomas Malthus (founder of population studies), says, "Conquest implies the destruction of the other party: commerce implies the satisfaction of the other party". Economic democracy is essential to these "commerce farmers". Oilcan, back in 6 August under Prairie Pasta, said, "It would seem economic democracy for individual prairie farmers is again going to be denied by a management fully out of touch with farmers. " Oilcan knows that survival means working together because we want to, not because the Minister Goodale of the CWB declares so. Only look at Palestine-Israel to know this is true. Co-operation is co-operative.

CharlieP phrased it well, "I agree that the current system with the CWB serving a policeman role as to markets that anyone can access won't meet the needs of the new world". But the bureaucrats and the government are possessed of a former era...of colonialism, of conquest, and they no longer provide to farmers, a service that services. And as farmers, we cannot afford to pay for them for stupid ideas that no longer fit in today's world.

As a farmer, decide what kind of a system you want to build
.....with coercion or with commerce.

The train is picking up speed.
Parsley IP: Logged