Life After CWB

[parsley]

Extra note.....Chas could the CWB buy all the wheat and barley from the farmers, and THEN the feed mills could buy it from the CWB for exporting? Sure. (Then it would be pooled and wealth distributed like you want).
The big question for you Chas .......there was a deal made here...in the heart of the CWB. But who in the CWB?

Ask questions Chas! Who would gain from this? ( Not farmers! You say they gain by pooling.) Who swung this deal? What stakes were on the table? Stakes for whom?

Why was it kept a secret?

Interesting if those books were opened up.But they're locked up.

Those are important questions and if you don't ask them, Chas, you're not going to clear the air. You're gonna get more of the same dealmaking too, because the CWB counts on you being too much of a pansy to as..

Parsley

[chas]

Parsley
1. The USA government and their farmers would put a stop to no cost licenses to protect their market, you know that and I know that Parsley why keep asking for something that is not going to work. (NOT GOING TO WORK!). My neighbors are professional farmers they don't chase rainbows. If as a farmer you want to get the best deal in another country then we will have to become part of the country.
2. Corportations are fine parsley but if you don't rein them in they will take advantage of individual farmers. You keep twisting my faith in corportations to fit your likeness Parsley.
3.Feed grains should be pooled Parsley but because of the rugged individual that you are out in the free market, you removed it from the board because of greed. Allowing it to be trader on the commodities market where they are sure to look after Parsley's bottom line.
Trust in directors elected by farmers to over see our marketing agencies is the only way we can put stability of pricing into our industry. Your looking for pie in the sky Parsley.

[ianben]

I have been reading your messages with interest as I farm in the U.K.with no wheat board.We do however have subsidies as I am sure you are aware but it is still the price we recieve for grain which determines our profits.
I agree with Chas that the futures markets do us no favors and we dont do ourselves any either. We as farmers globally own all the wheat when it is harvested but because we think we are in competion with one another we are weak sellers and allow small percentages of over production to have ridiculous affects on price. I would rather sell 90% of what I produce at a profit than 100% at a loss. An OPEC type organization for grain which sets a minimum price or a percentage of production sold. We could even join OPEC its self I read the other day 3 tons of wheat has the same energy value as 1000 litres of oil. If we could create a stable market I think usage would increace buyers like to be able to plan ahead that was why they formed the futures markets and the middlemen just take a percentage anyway.
Suppliers, who some of you seem to think would rip us off, I think would also welcome such stability. They only make money when we do, it must be immposible to know how many tractors or combines to produce. They have to make hay when the sun shines no wonder we get stung. So how about it lets harness the internet and compete like the multi-national on anything BUT PRICE!!!!

[chas]

Ianben
Thanks Ianben I could not of said it better myself. Lets hope some more boys will get on side and see our positive solution to marketing. Some how we have got to convince American, European
and other farmers around the world that commodity markets and subsidizing are not the way to go. Thanks I needed some support. Chas

[AppMan]

I can not understand how some farmers can not understand the value of the product they are producing, all in a rush to pool and export and give the money to someone else. Our (not are) wonderful single desk has made sure no value adding goes on in the designated region, just look around. how many mills or processors do you have to deliver to. Look at the label of the next bundle of pasta you purchase, which by the way is one very popular product around the world, and I know it will not be Saskatchewan or Alberta or Manitoba based processor, it could be Italy but most likely Missouri, California or even North Dakota. That seems to tell me that this must be the regions where good quality durum is grown??? I guess North Dakota grows durum but not nearly as much as southern Sask and Alberta, I wonder why North Dakota has so many pasta plants and some producer owned, must be that corporate mentallity. Do farmers have any idea how much money they are leaving on the table with this pooled export mentallity. It is not millions, it is billions of dollars. So yes, lets just plug along with the pooling system and make sure no one makes any money here, after all they probably won't share it with the rest of us.

It is so discouraging to see an element out there that is so worried about his neighbour making a buck and not sharing it with the rest, I know better, I can read, I know who built the foundations of this country and who built the foundations of the USA. We need co-ops and we need corporations and we need the ability to pool if we so desire and we need the choice to do any of the above but make any one of them manditory and we have big problems.

[parsley]

Welome to the discussion ianben! So nice to have an England farmer's point of view.

Chas, you asked for a positive solution, but you can't let out the clutch if your engine isn't there or you don't get ahead. I'll begin with the basics. You need to get a sound direction coming out of your head, that you can keep referring to. Consistent. Logical.

I believe that one of the most important things that farmers can do in this changing world is to think clearly. Ideas are wealth. Your reasoning has to be sound and consistent. You need to build your set of principles, that you can live with. And that don't impose upon other people.

The kind of system that a quickly shrinking number of farmers want to work within, is one of conquest. That's what you advocate, Chas, a CWB system. Making people comply. Force. Jail. Fines. Policing. The CWB is famous for it's coercion in Canada, ianben. There was a farmer in Manitoba named Andy McMechan who sold his barley into the USA without a CWB export license. The barley was a kind the CWB does not even market themselves, so Andy trucked it over the border. They hauled Andy off to jail, shackled in chains in front of his family....a big Liberal government show of "who's boss". [The Minister of the CWB, Ralph Goodale, ( a Westerner!) arranged that one. ] And Andy spent months in jail for selling his own grain. The police raided another Manitoba family farm home in the middle of the night, the Derocher family.....and it goes on and on. This is in Canada ianben.

The government is very cocky about winning a few battles against a few farmers, but they've lost the war. And the West .

There is a one-way producer-trend moving like a lumbering freight-train away from the CWB and state marketing. Each carry "Vote-Anything-But -Liberal" cards.

These producers recognize the value of choice for all farmers; they simply want to trade wheat and barley and make their customers happy. The farmer who wants to make other producers comply, at any cost, using any method, to his way of thinking, is out of touch with the way the world is moving. Wars are not politically correct anymore. We can't afford jails and shackles are discomforting. Sue and threaten the railroads that we need to work with like the CWB does? They have more money.


And the farmers with this kind of "conquest-comply-jail attitude" are the ones who will be marginalized in the long run. Because, morally, this philosophy can't sustain. Live and let live, Chas.

A fellow by the name of Thomas Malthus (founder of population studies), says, "Conquest implies the destruction of the other party: commerce implies the satisfaction of the other party". Economic democracy is essential to these "commerce farmers". Oilcan, back in 6 August under Prairie Pasta, said, "It would seem economic democracy for individual prairie farmers is again going to be denied by a management fully out of touch with farmers. " Oilcan knows that survival means working together because we want to, not because the Minister Goodale of the CWB declares so. Only look at Palestine-Israel to know this is true. Co-operation is co-operative.

CharlieP phrased it well, "I agree that the current system with the CWB serving a policeman role as to markets that anyone can access won't meet the needs of the new world". But the bureaucrats and the government are possessed of a former era...of colonialism, of conquest, and they no longer provide to farmers, a service that services. And as farmers, we cannot afford to pay for them for stupid ideas that no longer fit in today's world.

As a farmer, decide what kind of a system you want to build
.....with coercion or with commerce.

The train is picking up speed.
Parsley IP: Logged

[chas]

Parsley my boy, invest in a feedmill or a pasta plant have your independent free marketing farmers give you the grain and pay them in dividends on their shares in your corportation. In this manner you are not selling your grain but merely receiving dividends for your shares. Then if you don't sell something the CWB can not demanded a buyback. But remember it must be a corportation and not a co-operative as you done want co-opertation, and neither does the CWB (in building pasta plants). You say the freedom train is picking up speed and lots of rugged individual farmers are getting on. Just a warning the commodities market has taken the bridge out to your place of freedom to market. Do Not load your truck with whole grain and cross the border parsley or some American will shoot you. I would't want to lose you. Be careful or we will jail you for no reason at all in this dictatorship that we live. You still haven't given me your vision of this new world that is unfolding before us Parsley. Chas

[parsley]

You seem to sputtering away on two cylinders when it comes to logic Chas, but I have to admit, I've sort of developed a bit of fondness for your spunky humor. Yes, Chas, you said, "Parsley give me a positive solution on how we should be marketing are grain". I am assuming that you want to make money in the process.

Well here goes. It's going to be a slow process, because it'll be like dragging an old bull behind the little ford tractor.

The very first thing that you need is the right mindset and I've outlined the "commerce mindset" that will not only serve you well in keeping in harmony with world neighbors, but forms the basis for doing business and making money. Commerce, not coercion.

Who you really 'are' helps, too.

If you're born being inventive, and have a few smarts, and make sound judgements most of the time, and if you work at being honest and perservering, and actually work hard, and if you get yourself organized, acquire skills and save your money, you're pretty much prepared to take over your marketing. Healthy too. Tick them off and see how you score! I'm going to guess Chas, you'll do fairly well. (Your downfall is this....the old boys have travelled the CWB Trail since 1943, and find it pretty darn hard to even listen to a new idea let alone give it a try. And the Halpenny's of the world don't want new ideas developed, cause then they're out of a job.

Tommorow, we'll have a look at who stands in your way to doing business (carrying on commerce to create wealth and make a profit), in a friendly way that will make you a profit.. "What do you need changed before you can move forward? " is one we'll try to address.

I'll leave it here today Chas, because I have to get some work done. We'll go it step by step so you can ask me questions. Good solutions are built on logic and you're in a hurry Chas

PS: You have to read AppMan once more though , and practice your logic or we'll never get anywhere. His is a pretty good exercise.
Parsley

[chas]

Parsley my boy a question for you, can you export canola or other pulse crops across the USA border and make a big increase over the price we receive here in Canada.
Appman same question for you plus what kind of quality reputation will we maintain in the world with every body that you guys can't trust messing in your market. Your control will earn you a reputation that the American exports have earned for themselves in the open market. Hey don't bug me about my spelling (are for our). Chas

[chas]

Parsley my boy a question for you, can you export canola or other pulse crops across the USA border and make a big increase over the price we receive here in Canada.
Appman same question for you plus what kind of quality reputation will we maintain in the world with every body that you guys can't trust messing in your market. Your control will earn you a reputation that the American exports have earned for themselves in the open market. Hey don't bug me about my spelling (are for our). Chas

[chas]

Parsley my boy a question for you, can you export canola or other pulse crops across the USA border and make a big increase over the price we receive here in Canada.
Appman same question for you plus what kind of quality reputation will we maintain in the world with every body that you guys can't trust messing in your market. Your control will earn you a reputation that the American exports have earned for themselves in the open market. Hey don't bug me about my spelling (are for our). Chas

[ianben]

Thanks for the welcome everyone it still amazes me that we can comunicate like this.
I think I understand the way the CWB is supposed to work but it seems to be a bit like communism a great idea in principal shame it does not work in practice.
My point is neither do subsides in Europe, 26ooo farmers have left the industry in 2000 in the UK. We are told to diversify add value cut costs just like you.
We blame the French or Germans its always greener over there. You blame the USA.
The problem is not who where or how we sell but the PRICE we sell for.
The amount of money, time, and hardwork we have all invested in our farms should I think give us a decent income.
We need to learn to manage supply. Stop dashing round competing on price expecting to sell 100% of what we produce. I sold everything I produced in 95 and everything I produced in 99 but for roughly half as much, all because someone said there was a surplus.If we all left a few tons in the bin there would be no surplus and no need for prices to fall.
No-one in the world can survive at todays prices for long .CWB, subsides,freedom to farm etc have all failed to stabilize prices, lets see if worldwide co-operation by farmers over the internet could work.

[chas]

Sorry boys for the repeat messages it must be this new fangtangley machine here it can't be my fault after all I'am prefect. Ianben you have allowed them other fellows to lead you into beleiving the CWB is corrupt and communistic. It's trade rules developed by all governments to protect their countries that they want to break or have changed to suit their greed. They don't understand that once you remove the rules for exporting, large grain companies will some fill their niche markets and supply them at a price that we can not recover are cost of production at. Its Happening now all over the world and I'am sure the CWB is responsible for the farm crisis in Europe and the Western Hemisphere. Don't blame the CWB for problems that are world wide because farmers like Parsley and Appman can't see past the hoods of their trucks. As farmers we need to merge together into farmer controlled marketing boards that hire the best people we can get to market all of are grains and oilseeds to create a stable price in all commodities that we grow, so that farmers don't tend to over produce in anyone grain or oilseed to try to improve their profitability. I think that is common sense. Niche markets, like are learnt friends are talking about can be obtained in Western Canada as described in my aforementioned solution, have the CWB refund the freight portion of pooling system directly back to the farmer when he sells his grain to a pasta plant,feed mill or other value added processor in his farming area as the freight rate does not apply to this sale. This would foster some incentive to create value added companies in our areas. Like you said lets compete on every thing but PRICE. We must displace large grain traders and most of all remove commodity markets as a price discovery tool.
I'am a professional producer and would like to join with other professionals and hire a professional marketing team to get the best prices available in the world for my product. Most farm organizations in Canada and the USA are mainly concerned with lobbing government for more hand outs. If they actually solved the marketing problem they would be unemployed. We must get government at arms lenght if we plan to be sustainable. But maybe thats what this is all about employment? Parsley and appman it's time we stopped the arguement and come up with some sound solutions. I'am going to be in Radville Sk. next summer it would be nice to meet you stuble jumpers because I talk better than I write.(or at least you boys were whoing that I could eh!}. If you would like to shoot me make sure your gun is registered. Chas.

[TOM4CWB]

Chas

I find it interesting that you beleive our co-operative grain handlers are not the expert marketers you are searching for!

What does Agricore have to gain from ripping the grain farmers who do business with them? Nothing!

I would respectfully suggest that we already have the most efficient transportation and grain handling system in the world, for the conditions we must operate in. I am not saying we cannot do better. I beleive we can, as do the railways, grain handlers.

Now we are asking for a cartel to extract a ransom from the hungry billions, to make our lives more comfortable.

What will we do when those hungry billions rebel against your extraction plan, and come and take your farm away, by force?

Voluntary marketing means selling to a customer who beleives that they are getting fair value for the product purchased. Organic Grain receives its premium because customers are willing to pay a premium, not because they are hungary and are going to starve to death. Chas I can only interpret what you are proposing as BLACKMAIL, if you don't pay what I want, I will starve you to death!

Is this not a good way to start World War III?

[chas]

Tom4cwb you done understand and that's why I say I talk better then I write. The way the commodities market and big grain traders operate today does not allow the real market of farmer to customer price its commodity propertly or we would't be on here arguing with one another. Do you understand the basic simple need to create a price to cover cost of production, rather than the commodities market setting the price that is only concerned with protecting large grain traders who are not concerned about production cost. I think our marketing agencies should concern themselves with farmers, not corportation bottomlines that wealthy people can invest in to make money. Just because of the way we market now who will never see a publicly traded corportation get involved as a farmer growing grains and oilseed as the risk is far to high. Its a good thing agriculture gets into a humans blood because economically it does not make sense. Chas