Stay in 05-06 Advance Payment by Minister Strahl

[countryguy]

JD,don't get me wrong,I totally agree with what you are saying,but does it not make good business sense to use whatever we have available while we have it available?

BTW,I'm in MB,that's why I have to use the system a little.LOL

[grassfarmer]

TOM4CWB, Maybe you should stick to ranting about the CWB as you obviously don't know much about dairy.

"And the Cow itself is worth $2-3,000?"
well no actually the price tanked around the time the US border closed, lots of dairy replacements have sold in the $600 price range since then.

"WHy exactly would anyone pay this much for milk quota... if there were not a massive huge profit/subsidy included with the quota?" - There is actually no subsidy paid to dairy producers the return they get comes from the marketplace, the milk processors, because the Government regulates how much they must pay for the milk based on a production cost formula. In many ways I see this as the ideal set up in all sectors - a referee between the overpowering monopolies of the processing/retailing sector and the farmer. The higher price the dairy farmer receives for his produce relative to other farmers returns for their produce comes out of the processors share. And fools like the ABP want to sacrifice this dairy industry prosperity for a chance to boost exports of beef onto the global marketplace. Choosing to ignore the fact that although this will help the bottom line of Cargill and Tyson it will add nothing to the return of the primary producer given the current packer monopoly control of the sector.
In a way that is the same as your CWB issue - you think if you can only get rid of the CWB you will get $7 a bu for your wheat from Cargill, ADM etc - good luck! On the other hand these groups could and would pay $7 a bu now for wheat if it were under a similar deal to supply management in the dairy sector. It wouldn't cause the price of bread to rise either it would come out of the processors pockets. It remains the only proven way to successfully fight the monolithic corporations that control agriculture in N America.

"An economic unit of only 200 milk cows..." - the beauty of the supply management system in Canada is you don't need 200 cows, herds are often 40-60 cows and provide a good living.

"The Canadian consumer is paying for this massive subsidy Grassfarmer... aren't they; or do you think someone else is?" - How are they paying for it Tom? through higher milk prices? not so - Canadian retail milk prices are below those of the US most of the time.

"Where is the money coming from to buy and finance the quota?" - er, usually the producers pocket or his banks vaults no one gives him the money to buy it - it's free enterprise.

[TOM4CWB]

I find it is interesting that "free enterprise" is backed by a government enforced monopoly.

For good proven milk cows... the prices I quoted are realistic... I have a neighbour who sold out.

Do you ever think that the dairy farmer (or any supply management producer) would vote to free up the industry... with quota on the line worth millions.... that would instantly depreciate to valueless?

If quota was worthless... and the property of the state... I could much more easily accept the supply management system.

[rose]

Just a reply to cow prices lets be a little realistic as cow prices are maxed out at $1000 per head yes quota is high but so are consumers wages and their TAX FREE homes (since everyone is so hung up on tax free issues) not to mention their union wages and guaranteed income. The original reason that the quota system was brought into play was to guarntee a uniform work year to the people who worked in the milk plants, farmers where the ones that were opposed to the idea. So the consumer is the one who wanted it and should be happy they have a consistant supply of milk and milk products on the market and not low prices in the summer and then obscene prices in the winter.

Land prices are ever increasing also and so are the gas prices but none of the consumers are willing to give up their toys or a holiday for the extra pennies and dollars that every farmer in this country deserves. We (as farmers in general) bust our butts and all I hear in the store is this and that is to expensive but they don't mind taking off the shelves the most expensive bottle of shampoo or nail polish. Go figure

As you can tell I am the female farmer of our partnerhip, see not only the coffee talk but also the store talk.

Thanks

[TOM4CWB]

Rose;

I had not heard that explanation on quotas before.

I believe the WTO issue that third world countries have with our supply management is this:

$30,000; the per year investment is in interest charges at 8% interest is $2,400/year.

THis is $200 per month per cow. In many 3rd world countries this is many times the wage of the average working person.

We will not allow these countries to export milk of milk products/other supply management produce; to Canada... yet we expect to have WTO open up access/tariffs for our ag products to these third world or developing nations.

CDN milk has had WTO rule unfair subsidies and be diciplined by WTO.
We want to dump our skim milk and export cheeses; many would even work outside the domestic CDN system... yet we refuse any flexibility in any manner.

THen there is the issue of provincial distribution of quota between provinces... which doesn't even allocate respecting consumption: another problem that stops free trade within Canada itself.

Many issues... many problems... and for those in third world economies a perfect example of Canadian Schizophrenic appearances to others.

Say one thing... and do exactly the opposite... plus blame everyone else for the WTO talks breaking down. Is there any wonder we have the WTO talks is shambles?

On grain produce that has the benefit of the advance; it is one program that helps take the lows out of the domestic market by allowing grain growers the chance to hold off supply at harvest... and level out sales over the whole year.

I believe when the system advances the money... and all the advances stayed Wheat Durum, lentil & honey... it supports prices and keeps up prices in 3rd world countries of this produce.

THis helps third world ag producers on this side of the ledger.

THis is the latest CWB news on these issues:

"CWB Bulletin
July 31, 2006

The Bulletin

At a glance

Today marks the end of the 2005-06 crop year. It is the deadline for farmers to sign up for the Spring Cash Advance and Enhanced Spring Cash Advance (pre-harvest) programs. It is also the last day that farmers can sign up for the CWB's Early Payment Option (EPO) for 2005-06.
The suspension of world trade talks is a blow to prairie farmers, according to Larry Hill, CWB farmer-elected director and trade committee chair. Hill said the World Trade Organization is a key avenue for the effective reform of trade-distorting domestic and export subsidies used by competitors. WTO chair Pascal Lamy cited lack of progress last week when he announced that talks had been suspended. Major players such as the U.S. and EU could not agree on formulas to reduce their domestic subsidies and increase market access through tariff reduction."

So why exactly doesn't the CWB thank the federal gov. and alert growers as the administrator of wheat and durum... that a special stay has been issued by the minister?

[JD4ME]

OMG what an unbelievably ridiculous stance Tomrade, The interest that the supply managment is worth a month is bad but the free interest the advances give grain farmers is good??? Keeping grain prices high helps farmers in 3rd world nations that live on less than the interest you save ???Interest free advances are a subsidy admit it or at least admit youre only a free trader when it suits your skewed vision of the agricultural industry.
How many other businesses in Canada can sit on inventory when they haven't planned cash flow needs properly and expect the government to cut them a cheque interest free until the prices improve. I'm sure the major oil companies would love a piece of this action. I can hear the aurgument now "But it's good for all the little 3rd world oil producers if we can sit back until the market gets to 100 a barrel"

[TOM4CWB]

JD4ME;

The "single desk" failed to market part this years crop, the governement is helping growers by to charging penalties for the CWB's failure... and you suggest this is unreasonable?

Very interesting.

By the way I refuse to take a fall advance in any of our grain production through the ferderal gov program... but use the spring advance.

We do get advances from the trade on some IP production; outside the gov's. program.

I do appreciate the market influence of cash flow management that advances have in leveling prices... which makes it easier to supply our customers year around. Generally Supply managed produce is a more constant output that does't have a pressure harvest period like grain in the fall here... and doesn't need the same leveling for inventory.

Grain growers contribute massive gov. tax revenue from inputs we purchase in the production of our crops. Monopolies have been created and allowed by gov. which allow extraction of massive amounts of our revenue. THe competition laws in Canada are a bad joke.

Therefore a small incentive (Produce advance programs) to encourage orderly marketing of Ag products is a reasonable expectation of our governement... IMHO.

So am I to understand... you think they (Ag produce advances) are an unfair subsidy (they need be removed)... and supply management is good and must be retained?

What about the CWB "single desk" pool that averages lows and highs in grain prices... shouldn't this program with the same effect be removed?

And what about the CWB forcing us to hold our grain interest/storage free... which is a subsidy to livestock consumers of feed grains (as the CWB is the only competition) shouldn't the CWB be forced to pay storage/interest if they require me to retain their grain off the market and store it?

How does any of this come even close to resembling the Canola market that pays me storage; gives me an advance outside gov. programs... or an increased revenue flow to compensate?

Did you notice there was no need to stay canola advances?

[TOM4CWB]

The "single desk" failed to market part this years crop, the governement is helping growers by [not] charging penalties for the CWB's failure... and you suggest this is unreasonable?

We need an edit spell check button Charlie!

[JD4ME]

You better read a little closer Tom , what I'm saying is twofold I believe agriculture is a business and subsidies distirt market signals hence distorting the industry. I stated earlier I do not enjoy competeing again supply manged commodities for the same land base especially when fromally valueless quota can be sold for millions to buy farm land. Quota values were created by government and the value should accrue back to government when turned over.
The board question may/will be soon moot will you give up the adavnce/subsidy fully then?

[TOM4CWB]

JD4ME;

When the governement has effective anti-monopoly and implemented competition laws that stop price fixing; racketeering, and supply / demand markets driven by dependable transparent pricing signals then:

I would expect competition and fair service from our railroads;

I would expect fair and honest arbitage of fertiliser pricing that makes our grain industry a level playing feild on input pricing;

Dito for ag chems;

Energy/fuel pricing that delivers competitive transpartent supply without monopoly type extractions on pricing;

USA and Canadian grain growers from coast to coast working under the same rules that are transparent and dependable...

In this case JD4ME I would welcome a market driven grain industry.

How close do you think we are to this reality? Could it ever happen in our lifetimes?