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Risk to the pool accounts in an open market

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    Risk to the pool accounts in an open market

    I've been thinking. I'm not much on arguing on philosophical grounds - I'm more technical in my approach. When someone says I can't do something, or something can't be done, I try to find a way around it. Sorry for length of this, but I want to float an idea...

    The CWB is concerned that in an open market, it couldn’t survive, partly because the pooled price (fixed initial, etc) would not appear attractive in most market situations. They say the pool won’t be able to compete with spot prices, especially in a rising market.

    Today, the CWB provides an Initial Payment that is a flat price – it covers both futures and basis components of the ultimate price. But think about it for a minute – any price benefit coming from the CWB is solely in the basis – not futures. The CWB can’t get a better futures price, but assuming it can get premiums in the cash market, it can get a better basis.

    The Initial Payment is set conservatively because of price uncertainty over the whole crop year and to avoid deficits. Since most of the price of grain is reflected in futures prices, most of the price change the CWB is concerned about would show up in futures. So if the CWB didn’t have to worry about variations in futures prices, it could offer better prices (and pricing signals) up front. Instead of a flat price Initial Payment, the CWB could offer an “Initial Basis Payment”.

    The concept would work like this:

    Prior to the beginning of the year, the CWB would establish its Initial Basis Payment (IBP). Let’s say for argument’s sake that the IBP for #1CWRS 13.5 is 60 over – that is, 60 cents per bushel over the nearby Mpls futures (the futures are quoted in USD, applying the basis converts the final price to Canadian dollars – just like they do with corn in ON). Data from the CWB shows that the PRO tends to be about this much above Mpls wht futures.

    You could commit a tonnage of wheat into this pool, accepting this basis. Either prior to delivery or upon delivery, the grain would be priced – at your sole discretion. You would manage the flat price risk just as you do with canola.

    So with the recent run up, you could price your #1CWRS 13.5 (at 60 over) at around $5.65 per bushel (compared to today’s Initial Payment of $3.93 per bushel). The CWB could manage the price risk like every one else - with futures.

    Upon completion of the pool period, the CWB would figure out how much it can pay beyond the IBP and pay it as a final payment. Because the total risk to the pool is lower, the IBP should represent a greater proportion of the final payment than currently is the case – more money up front, not as much as a final.

    Flat price decisions would be made individually by each farmer. Assuming there are farmers who would rather have the CWB continue to price their wheat, as an option the CWB could offer a conventional Initial Flat Price Payment – just as is the case today.

    With this pricing mechanism, the CWB could still maintain the pool and it wouldn’t be subject to the problems of a rising market; the effective pool price would rise along with the rising market (futures). Also, a pool of this sort wouldn’t be dumped on in a falling market either.

    All farmers in the pool would still benefit from the CWB equally.

    Here we would have attractive pooling prices in an open market. Both systems working side-by-side.

    This also would take away the need for all the complicated Fixed Price Contracts and Basis Payment Contracts that the CWB offers today.

    This pooling "issue" overlaps with another problem posed by the pro-CWB camp – why would the grain companies agree to handle CWB grains when they have their own grain sales programs to satisfy. The answer to this is simple – the CWB needs to stop thinking like a grain company and start thinking more like a farmer. If the CWB contracted, let’s say 10 million tonnes of grain with farmers it could easily approach grain companies and say, “We control 10 million tonnes of grain. What’ll you offer in terms of handling services?” If you don’t think that would attract some competitive behaviour, you aren’t thinking like a grain handler with excess capacity. And once the CWB locks up handling arrangements with grain handlers, its basis just got even more defined.

    Okay – get the slings and arrows out and tear this thing apart. I can take it.

    #2
    Chaffmeister;

    We have pool examples all over the place in a voluntary market. Beans, AU runs a very good system. Grass seed usually has co's who want this system.

    We must get away for market distortion... with a open default to the domestic feed market... that then can suck up the excess stocks at 50-75% of production cost. This is not helpful to any grain farmer!

    Comment


      #3
      Good ideas for discussion. From what I understand, your approach assumes the CWB consistently gets a premium over the market, which I have a tough time believing. However, I like the idea of the CWB being more engaged in the futures markets. We need wheat buyers bidding on the exchanges for a more accurate market, rather than just phoning up the CWB and getting a price, and whoosh several thousand tonnes just disappear without a bidding process.

      Comment


        #4
        rook - yes, for the sake of the argument, the example does assume the CWB gets a premium. Whether it does or not is immaterial to the concept. The idea is simply aimed at the concern that the CWB wouldn't be able to compete in an open market because of the pool.

        If the CWB does get a premium, it should be able to put out a pretty competitive basis...

        Comment


          #5
          Chaffmeister;

          If growers assign acres, and the production from those acres to the CWB's pool account for that crop... there is no more risk to the pool account than there presently exists for CWB pool accounts today!

          Participation in the pool is quite a different matter!

          Right now all export and human consumption domestic wheat and barley is in the pool accounts... with various permutations from that on the side; PPO sub-contracts.

          The CWB missed a; huge opportunity.

          Over the past 5 years the CWB needed to be cash pricing the base crops (instead of throwing everything into pools...

          And getting grain growers who needed pooling services in the habit of signing up grain products into the pool accounts... in preperation for a marketing choice environment.

          Further this change would have pushed the CWB into a more accountable futures program... and driven market transparency into the CWB pricing system.

          All of course which leads to better accountability and grower/enduser confidence.

          We can start now though...

          Comment


            #6
            Chaffmeister, re cash from premiums cah prices versus futures buying. What percentage of grain sales would be best to cash price as opposed to pricing futures? We do a lot of dollar cost averaging by disciplined selling cash price monthly and also picking the best DDC price in the future. Basis seems to be a much smaller risk than price as we store to compensate for the wider seasonal basis. Not the technically best strategy, but has worked well.

            Point is I guess, how can a farmer get the 'premium' without the CWB? Would it make the CWB completely unnecessary?

            Comment


              #7
              You’re right Tom – IF growers assign production to CWB pool accounts (or contracts)… but there’s the rub. The CWB says pooling can’t compete in an open market – because price pooling would fail to attract growers. And yes, Tom – you get it. You touched important concepts here – transparency, accountability, confidence. Perhaps the most important one though is missing – capability (by the CWB to compete).

              I was just reading in today’s paper about the CWB forum in Winnipeg – with all these guys saying the CWB couldn’t survive in an open market. Unfortunately, none of these academics (like Richard Grey) and politicians (like Rosanne Wowchuk) have ever traded grain – they think of grain prices in a seriously one dimensional fashion. I guarantee you they’ve never looked at the concept of an Initial Basis. They, like the CWB, fail to see that there are indeed ways to keep the CWB in the game in an open market, because they can’t see past their textbooks and economic theory.

              wd9 - just read your post. I gotta run - will get back to you later today.

              Comment


                #8
                wd9 – I think there are two different things here. The CWB argues that because of its market clout, it can demand premium prices (higher prices than the competition, at the same time) in some markets. I don’t want to argue that point one way or the other – some believe it, some don’t. I’m sceptical because I’ve never seen proof.

                Now, can an individual grower do better – get a better basis (consistently) – than the CWB, even considering the “premium” it supposedly gets? I believe so. The difference is that the CWB is talking about premiums based on quality and service (I think). Whereas, in the non-CWB market I think we’re talking about astute marketing and taking advantage of seasonal or timely basis strength.

                Looking at canola as an example, the reason the canola basis gets so sloppy (weak) in the fall is because of heavy grower selling (and delivering). The flip-side of that is that when grower selling (and delivering) is lighter – when farmers put the locks on the bins, as they say – the basis can get quite strong. I’ve seen years when the market offered as much as $1.00 per bushel “premium” over spot prices simply for selling deferred positions instead of spot in the fall. But how many take advantage of it? How many can (because of cash flow)?

                I don’t know if I’m answering your question but I guess the bottom line is that the CWB feels it’s restricted in how it can sell; it admits it’s a price taker since it feels it needs to sell (equally) throughout the year, regardless of price. So, if they are getting premiums in Japan, I think the weaker prices it accepts at certain times of the year probably overwhelms those premiums. Individual farmers can be much more nimble if that makes sense for their operation.

                Comment


                  #9
                  The CWB was supposedly selling $9.00 a tonne under the U.S. into Japan 6 weeks ago and $12.00 under the U.S. into the Philipines 3 weeks ago.

                  Think these make it into the sacred binder that Directors go on and on about - and what is the benchmark?

                  MGE futures? Portland? Those ridiculous asking prices the CWB posts?

                  I think the benchmark is Lethbridge FEED price. Then their statement would be correct. THEY GET A PREMIUM ALL THE TIME.

                  Proof - nope.

                  Were the Americans *issed. Yup. Premium - Where.

                  If you want to get your laughs for today, read this:
                  ___________________________________

                  http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?type=news&id=12003

                  The CWB is already the most transparent of organizations involved in the grain trade. The reason that the Senate chose to remove the CWB from the Accountability Act is that leaving it in would potentially force the CWB to release commercially-sensitive information to the public, something from which its private-sector competitors are exempt.

                  ____________________________________

                  Commercially senstive, it may have been 40 years ago...Today the only reason they want no one in there is its more like career ending for most of the staff.

                  I would venture that all of the BOD wouldnt know what to look for in that binder. ANd as Chaffmeister has said so eloquently - the nuances of international trading are much more far reaching than price.

                  Commercially sensitive? The CWB selling prices are reported on Reuters within 24 hours on some of their sales - even Japanese values.

                  This thing is far from over. Both sides havent got to the economists yet. And you know that trick is still coming.

                  And the trump card that the CWB, Manitoba Gov't, Sask Government, APAS, NFU, KAP and Wild Rose all have left is the legal challenge. It worked once before and Wartman said he is looking at it this week in the media.

                  This time the CWB can't fund SWP's challenge - too risky if there is Access to Info and the Pool has changed.

                  The CWB has about 14 days to show someone credible that they havent bought (Gray Furtan et al) some real numbers. They won't. And they don't have a plan B. In the end, they will have no one to blame but themselves but they won't.

                  I can make compelling reasons as to why they need to stay around - none if they don't come clean. If they don't come clean and show the REAL premiums they generate, then all of the supporters should feel slighted, cheated and used. Because if they don't - they were never there. It was all a myth.

                  A dying man will usually do everything possible to stay alive. Threatening the Ag Minister responsible for the fluid in your IV is not a good way to stay alive.

                  sorry for the ramble....

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Seems to me the CWB never promised getting the best price, just a pooled price which is the result of dollar cost averaging over the year be it cash or futures or any combination in percentage. Canola again as an example in the last 3 weeks or so has seen increase based on farmers simply not selling or very disciplined and voila the price rose - not all that simple of course. We simply can not see this in wheat because is it safe to say the selling is less about being disciplined but simply too predictable or predictably overdisciplined. A premium may be defined then (in hindsight at year end )as any sale over the DCA price over the whole year.

                    Tomato or Tomahto, premium or just marketing the way it should be done? Seems the point of reference of defining at what price is a premium needs some clarity, for me anyways.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Good point wd9 - when is a premiunm a premium? When the CWB says it is - I guess.

                      I always assumed that the CWB meant it demanded and got a better price than its competitors were offering - at the same time, same tender. But, even though they say they get a premium into Japan, I also hear stories like Incognito's - many times over.

                      So perhaps we need to ask the CWB - what does it mean when it refers to premium sales? Does it mean a premium over other potential sales/destinations at the same time? Or does it mean a premium over other sellers / same destination / same time?

                      Agstar77? Wilagro? Vader? Anyone else? Do any of you know?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Throw in your original point on risk of basis and then would that further calculate into that pooled "average price".

                        As a grower I can use the cash advance for cash flow and store the grain, sign up a better basis, whatever method and be paid for storing interest free now up to $100,000 and another 250,000 at low interest.

                        Another debate for sure is which is greater risk, price or basis? Given values and swings and predictability of basis by yield and other technical factors, I'd lean towards price and use timing for basis. Can the CWB do that? Don't know.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The CWB premium is pure myth. If the cwb had any credible evidence at all they would have shared it with growers long ago.

                          Do you remember the KFT Study done just prior to the 1996 Western Grain Marketing Panel? We'll the KFT Study supposedly found a $13tonne premium on wheat. But in it's presentation to the marketing panel the cwb said that they only get premiums for high quality cwrs wheat. For wheat like cps or winter wheat the got no premiums. At the time the spread between a base #1 12.5% protien and a #1 CPS was around $10t to $12t. But if you looked at what they were saying that in an open market without the cwb premium of $13t, cps wheat would have been worth $1t more than cwrs.

                          They could never explain this illogical conclusion so they just hammered the spread between cps and cwrs another $20t and it's been that way ever since.

                          The premium doesn't exist, period.

                          Not one cwb study has ever been peer reviewed in order to verifiy the findings.

                          There is a very good reason why the cwb says it can't survive in an open market, it's because it's true. Not because of the loss of the single desk but because they have alienated so many growers that the cwb will have a very hard time convincing anyone to deal with them.

                          The CWB has spent the last ten years telling everyone that they have no value without the monopoly and their failure is assured if they are forced to compete.

                          Good sales pitch, Gaurenteed failure if you choose to deal with us. The farmers who support the cwb won't deal with them because they believe the fearmongering and the choice guys won't deal with them because the cwb has pissed them off for so long they will deal with anyone else but the cwb.

                          I once asked Lorne Hehn why I should have any confidence in the CWB when the CWB had such little confidence in it's own abilities to compete. He couldn't answer the question, No one can. Agstar77 can't, Vader can't, Ritter can't, Measner can't, Goodale can't.

                          The cwb has posistioned itself as a company so pathetic, so utterly useless to anyone, so magnificently meaningless that the only way they can survive is if people are forced to deal with them.

                          I'm sure you all have heard the joke about a baby being so ugly that it's parents had to tie a pork chop around it's neck just so the dog would play with it.

                          Well, isn't that exactly what the cwb says about itself, but it's not a joke to them, they mean it.

                          But the game changes tommorow boys.

                          That argument is going to be like a noose around the cwb's neck. It's going to be interesting days ahead.

                          Comment

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