question on OPEC

[just_wondering]

Most times I hear some pro-monopoly CWB person out there the quote goes something like this
" It's simply economics!
monopolies are good, if you are a member,if there was no CWB it would be 40,000 farmers compeating against each other"
(note its probably closer to 16000 farmers)
question-
why does Canada not Belong to OPEC? , I dont know the answer but is it posible that there is a world price for oil,and that wheat like oil has a world price and that if magically a cartel does keep prices up others can coast on the shirttails?

[cottonpicken]

I'll assume your refering to me since i'm the only one thats made the arguement.
First i'm not a hardcore supporter.
Second if your having a hard time with economics 101 and monopolies,pick up a book.
Third,if opec does slow production of oil, which their about to do, of course canadas oil companies benefit.
Fourth,most opec countries are muslim and canada, since it is not muslim is not a member.
Fifth,i'm going to also assume you have lost every game of "monopoly" you have ever played-i bet you keep trading property for railroads right?

[chaffmeister]

Monopolies ARE great for the monopoly.
Monopolies don’t have members – cartels have members.
The CWB is NOT a monopoly, nor can it be considered a cartel; it has zero market power over anything outside of Canada; and in Canada, its power is used for the dark side, Luke.
OPEC production decisions impact world oil prices because they control about 80% of the world’s crude reserves.
There is nothing in the wheat market that remotely looks like or smells like a cartel, let alone a monopoly. There are no “shirttails” to coast upon. There are 5 major exporting countries (US, EU, Argentina, Canada and Australia) and a few minor ones, and many, many buyers. The CWB controls the marketing of your wheat, but not your production.

Cottonpicken:
First – you’re not the only one making the argument – you just do it harsher than the others.
Second – if you’re having a hard time dealing with people, you need to get out more.
Third – thanks for stating the obvious.
Fourth - being muslim is not a prerequisite for being a member of OPEC – Venezuela (which is predominantly Catholic) is a founding member. Being a substantial exporter of crude oil is a prerequisite. Canada is not a member because it is not a substantial exporter of crude oil. Also the current members have to accept you as a new member.
Fifth – if you treat the people you know the same way you treat the people on Agriville (whom you don’t even know), I’d be surprised if anyone ever agreed to play monopoly with you at all.

[chaffmeister]

correction - I said that the CWB has no market power outside of Canada. That's not totally true - its actions can have a NEGATIVE impact on world prices in the short term (that's why the US is ticked). But in light of the discussion on cartels, the CWB cannot and does not support prices in any way.

[TOM4CWB]

Chaffmeister,

Many good points... LOL!

However Canada is a major exporter of oil... that is covered by a strict trade agreement (NAFTA) which stops us from joining the Cartel and putting the screws to the US.

I would bet however... if Canada wanted to renegotiate NAFTA... we could get some major concessions out of the US where they are not being "fair" in their dealings now!

The US needs a stable freind to the north... especially when we have a good chunk of the worlds black gold.

Energy security is #1... in the US top 10 list of national objectives.

[chaffmeister]

Tom: I guess what we’re saying – you and I – is that there are many reasons why Canada is not a member of OPEC – and it ain’t because we’re not muslim! I stand by my comment that Canada is NOT a significant exporter of crude, at least by OPEC standards – on a net basis (remember we import as well) we were net exporters of about 152 million barrels in 2005. Compare that to OPEC members who averaged over 2 Billion barrels (the smallest was Indonesia at 374 million barrels – 8 of the 11 were over 1 Billion).

[cowman]

Ah....but you make one mistake? We are the old "reliable"?
Don't ever under estimate that fact?
We are the one "supplier" who isn't unstable, nut case, goofy etc.?
We actually own America...if the truth be known?
Can you ever imagine what might happen if the day came when we had some radical wingding government in power, who controlled the oil field in Alberta?
About the best argument I've ever heard for never letting the NDP or their buddies the Liberals ever having any kind of power?

[cottonpicken]

Major concessions if we challenge under nafta?-can i have some of what your smoking?-you must like being kicked in the balls repeatedly.

First-Please refer to the other poster that has used monopolies are good if your apart of it-i must have missed his post
Second-i just have a hard time with dumb people.(i'll take harsh as a compliment)
Third-I was replying to just's statement not you and stating the obvious must mean i'm right.
Fourth-I said most countries are muslim.
Fifth-i'm doing just fine in the friend department,thats why i'm not looking for any on this website unlike most here.
Sixth-boy do you guys turn into whiners
when somebody puts up a fight in a debate.I really dont think i'm the one with "thin skin" or a "chip on my shoulder" or "no friends".I new guys like you in school,if you couldn't play the position you wanted you would take your bat and ball home and go crying to mommy about all the bully's on the playground.

[chaffmeister]

“First-Please refer to the other poster that has used monopolies are good if your apart of it-i must have missed his post”

I was not referring to the exact words – just the sentiment; how about all the members of the “Borg”?


“Second-i just have a hard time with dumb people.(i'll take harsh as a compliment).”

I’m afraid it’s not.


“Third-I was replying to just's statement not you and stating the obvious must mean i'm right.”

Yup. You’re right.


“Fourth-I said most countries are muslim.”

And you said “and canada, since it is not muslim is not a member.” With all due respect, that’s where you’re wrong.


“Fifth-i'm doing just fine in the friend department,thats why i'm not looking for any on this website unlike most here.”

I don’t think others are looking for friends, they simply have a greater respect for other people than you apparently do.


“Sixth-boy do you guys turn into whiners when somebody puts up a fight in a debate.”

On the contrary, I love a good debate. But a good debate stays on the issues being debated, maintains respect between the participants and doesn’t lose its focus by getting truculent with cheap, abrasive or caustic personal swipes that contribute nothing to the debate.

“I really dont think i'm the one with "thin skin" or a "chip on my shoulder" or "no friends".I new guys like you in school,if you couldn't play the position you wanted you would take your bat and ball home and go crying to mommy about all the bully's on the playground.”

Being a bully is not my idea of a badge of honour. But if that’s all that works for you, go with it. And you have my sympathies.

[just_wondering]

Your so vain you probably think this thread is about you.
Cottonpicken you never even entered my thoughts as I posted this question, next you will take credit for the argument if the CWB is so bad how come the Americans don't like it. For a reply see chaffmeisters post on negative influences.
But you are right back in collage economics was not my strong point, and while reading a book is always a good idea , I'm a much better student now.

Also its not the hardcore supporters I try to sway with reason and good questions its the 60% of people that are in the middle, ( I'll give 20% to each side as die hards)and are not quite sure what to think.
They know what the CWB has told them for the last 80 years, and they know that's not right, and they know what their own numbers on their own farms tell them and thats not real encouraging.
Who are you going to believe the CWB or you own lying eyes.