Alberta tarsands

[silverback]

How do the grain brokers, who have no elevators, railroads, or guaranteed supply, survive to feed their children Chuck?

They provide a service of marketing - for a fee. Mine charges $.05. Sometimes they have a good price, sometimes they don't. I get to choose if they sell it for me. Pretty hard to figure out. What do you think the board has been doing for seventy years? They had that long to come up with a better way to do things other than forced pooling and they didn't.

Does the Ontario Wheat Board operate their own elevator system? Their own milling system? Their own railway? What about Australia? They ran a real clean ship hey?

Don't tell me that it is ok to stomp my "economic" freedom into the ground just so your communist ideology can survive. What I grow on my land is just that - mine, and I should never be forced to mix it with yours or anyone else's unless I choose to do that. If the product you produce is not good enough without needing help from your neighbors then I am really sorry.

If the CWB cannot cope with allowing producers to use their brokering service , or not, then I am sure someone else will step up and do it for them. Let's open the books and find out how good they are doing.

[AdamSmith]

Actually chuck, 30% voted in favour of the single desk candidates for director, 20% voted for other candidates for director, and 50% shrugged their shoulders and said "whatever".
--------------------------------------
The following are some great Thomas Jefferson Quotes,

They all aptly apply to the CWB, and the debate surrounding it.

Read and enjoy


A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

Agriculture, manufacturers, commerce, and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are then most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

[Lifer]

I am a bit more confused. If a wheat board without a monopoly is useless why all the arguments for the wheat board.

The Canadian Wheat Board has no monopoly over world wheat trade. Therefore is it not useless as far as the power arguments go.

[lesm]

Chuck Chuck, I agree with silverback's view of how the dual marketing system could work. Do you believe everything Adrian Measner tells you?? After all, he short changed all of us on our final wheat board payments for the most of seven years.

[GrainVac]

Chuchchuck, you can't compare the CWB to supply-management. Where does the CWB say grow only X amount of wheat because that is the amount we can extract maximum value for? The 80% acceptance does not accomplish the same thing. Nevermind the fact that supply-management manages the domestic needs only and is built upon the idea that we don't/won't compete in the export market and is there only to support the local producer. Last time I checked, wheat production would have to get scaled back more than 10-fold to fit the poultry and dairy supply-management models...no exports and over-charge Canadian consumers for the amount Canadians want/need....guys like you sure spout a lot of trash talk when this stuff is simple economics 101. Should I tell you about how much capital you'd have to invest to participate in a real monopoly like the poultry and dairy quota system? And guess what, they are even more at "mercy" of big multinationals than grain producers because they are completely integrated. (Maple-leaf,Saputo,etc...)

[jensend]

reading on this morning's syngenta(?) morning report that the aussie and cdn wheatboards handle 1/3 of global wheat trade. if they're both on the way out i think it will just be handing more control over to adm, cargill, etc. since they are already big in both marketing of grain and merchandising inputs they will just be strengthened by the demise of the boards. reduced competition in the marketplace hasn't worked well so far has it? if the wheat board hasn't been doing a good job i think anything extra to be gotten out of the market will just go to the big players, not the producers.

[chuckChuck]

Grainvac. I well understand the differences of how supply management works versus the CWB. What I question is how can the Conservatives be ideologicaly against the CWB on basis of freedom and choice but support marketing boards such as supply management for dairy and poultry that have even stricter restrictions on individual economic freedoms. If they believe in everyone for themselves in an open market then they shouldn't support any marketing boards. Thanks for pointing out that multinational processors dominate the market. That is exactly what has happened to the rest of agriculture. Even the Western Canadian Wheat Growers oppose the merger of Agricore with Sask Wheat Pool. Apparently they don't think there will be enough competition! Shocking! The Western Canadian Wheat Growers opposed to a 'freemarket' merger????! I thought the 'market' knows best?

[blackjack]

...is this going to be a repeat of the hog industry...as soon as the marketing board for pigs was gone...the smaller farms died like flies...the big boys in the industry grew out of what they call the days of hell...now with the increase in grain prices or an american tariff on trade ...i hear the same cries...i do hope these fuel substitutes come through for you guys...but what you receive at the farm gate in real dollars will be interesting to watch...

[rainman]

chuckChuck, were you one of the guys at the meeting this morning holding up a CWB sign that said "our board, our choice"? I was at the meeting this morning and I thought that the pro CWB people were pathetic! This was not a CWB briefing it was for the most part to announce that their will be 300 and some odd million for farmers/cooperatives,etc to access. So whem Nettie Wiebe and her CWB followers piped up about the firing of Measoner, it was not called for! I don't even classify this money as a subsidy as they made no reference to any tax breaks or direct money for bio fuel production. Minister Ambrose and Minister Strahl were there too announce federal funding for farmer owned facilities. So chuchChuck, I find your comments very narrow minded and maybe you should look at the future which WILL include bio fuels. I am not saying that minister Strahl is great, but at least they are trying unlike our previous Feds.

[SASKFARMER3]

Finally maybe there is a change coming in Agriculture and the City people should be ready for it.
1. the CWB is Dead or will be, it doesnt work in today's market.
2. SWP et are dinosaurs that either have to reinvent themselves or will be gone.
3. Farmers like the one on the Leader post Business page are a dying breed, don't see that the world is changing and think that farming is a way of life. Yes it is but its also a business.
4. Useless Liberal Govt programs were the straw that broke the Farmers back, We had BSE, Frost and Drought and most primary producers received lip service all cash went to Processors, Hog barns Feedlots.
5. Internet sped up this process, farmers became better educated and see what is happening in other areas around the world not reading it 3 months later.
Simply people should realize that when a industry gets pushed into a corner like farming has the last 13 years with no help just lip service there will be a change and that change is good.
Bio Fuel is happening all over the world and that is a reality just because were blessed with oil doesn't mean we cant embrace it to.
But we need a program the same as US because of location or Canadian farmers will be supplying raw material to the US to keep their plants producing ethanol.
One last comment a US plant is paid for today in less than 16 months and is sending its shareholders dividends after that.

[cowman]

I think Canada will really miss out on an opportunity if they don't invest in this bio fuel? In fact I would suggest we are already slow getting out the gate? The US and Europe are way ahead of us?
Hugh Segals "report on agriculture" is right on the money! If something isn't done to inject some money into agriculture in this country...agriculture, as we know it will cease to exist! Sure someone will plant the crops, but very unlikely the ones doing it now? The product will be shipped to the US to be processed? Is that what we want? The end of the rural communities?
Come on, look around you! How many young farmers do we have? We are rapidly becoming an industry of old men!
If something isn't done we will not need schools, hospitals, stores or much infrastructure out in the rural areas...because no one will live there! That might be the most efficient way...but is that what Canadians want?
I see an investment in agriculture in the form of some startup money for bio fuel, as a much better option than throwing welfare payments at farmers? Give them a chance to succeed instead of doom them to being wards of the state!
The livestock feed thing will straighten itself out. Poundmaker has been producing ethanol and beef for a long time now? Permelex(Red Deer) sells whatever is left after their process to one feedlot and one large hog barn! And I would suggest reducing our cow herd and resulting meat export problems would be a good thing?
Isn't "value added" the buzz word of every agricultural expert? Doesn't this "value add" a lot? The CWB has not been overly helpful in any kind of value adding of our raw products? Whether they go or not would not matter to a bio fuel industry? Or would it? Would the CWB want to get their hands on this new industry?

[parsley]

Look at what the CWB is doing to organics.

The CWB decided to start marketing for aa "few" organic farmers. Mainly in Southwestern Saskatchewan. What does this mean?

Since organic farmers have to do the buyback in order to export, they have to list the name of their buyer on the export certificate.

The CWB can access the names of all the buyers, the price, and the quantity.

And when marketing for this select group of organic farmers (who publically proclaimed that they were not able to market their own grain), they will steal the established markets using the established organic growers' own data, and are also able to subsidize any bad deals by taking money from your conventional pools.

That's how the Wheat Board operates!

The CWB is not dead enough. Yet.

Parsley

[chuckChuck]

Cowman. I agree agriculture is in crisis. One of the solutions is to give farmers more market power. Almost every sector in the economy is merging and consolidating to reduce competition and the number of sellers in the marketplace. Their end business goal is to try to be large enough to dominate or monopolize the market. So can you tell me why those who support the demise of the CWB are advocating that farmers would be better off going into the market place as thousands of individuals? It doesn’t make economic sense and is contrary to what is happening all around us in the business world. Investing in Biofuel may or may not be a good thing, only time will tell. There are also many other areas where investments in alternative forms of energy would be a good idea. Conservation by increasing energy efficiency is often the best investment in terms of payback. It also makes good economic sense and will create a lot of economic activity because consumers and business will upgrade. North American governments have been very reluctant to impose higher fuel efficiency standards for vehicles which would lessen demand significantly. What I also wanted to point out is that farmers who advocate regulations that support biofuels are supporting government intervention in agriculture. But many of the writers on this thread are critical of government intervention when it comes to the CWB. So if you agree that it is okay for government to regulate 5% ethanol, then you are accepting that government has some role to play. Those who argue that only the ‘free’ market should decide how our economy functions should also accept the decline of rural communities because we really don’t need all those small and medium sized farmers for economic reasons. Why not follow the Brazillian model where one farm corporation has over 350,000 acres of soybeans? If you are advocating keeping small farms and communities around, then please explain how you are going to do it when economically they are not viable under the principles of the current ‘free’ market. Bio-Fuel may help but it will not solve the underlying problems. Hoping that the EU and the US will stop subsidizing farmers is not realistic. Food production is always going to be a political issue around the world so what are the policy alternatives?

[chuckChuck]

Parsley you old sage where did you find the following bit of misinformation? Perhaps you should check your sources as the following is completely wrong.

"Since organic farmers have to do the buyback in order to export, they have to list the name of their buyer on the export certificate" "The CWB can access the names of all the buyers, the price, and the quantity".

I know several organic farmers who have done buybacks and you do not have to list your buyers name or selling price on the PDS export contract/license. To do a buyback you only have to identify the country you are selling too and the quantity.

Also organic farmers asked the CWB to get involved because the open market for organic wheat was not doing a good job in their opinion. People were having trouble selling all their organic wheat.

Have you ever found a special crops buyer on your own, cleaned, loaded and shipped a shipping container overseas? The potential for a mistake or a dispute is high and potentially expensive unless you are pretty experienced at this sort of thing.

[cottonpicken]

No point in argueing with a woman chuck, especially one from ontario.