Does wheat have a place in the bio fuels market

[wd9]

Well see Craig, that is the issue, if you were investing, you would know. A business built on government policy that can change on a whim and that has no hope of paying for itself without government has what value? So your original question, does wheat have a place in the bio fuels market, I would say no. Ethanol provides little to no benefit when compared to HC exhaust after the catalytic converter. That and the fact you now have water based polution that enters the ground water as opposed to HC pollution which stays up in the sky is what? Better?

[craig]

Jensend, WD9 you seem quite prepared to argue the logic of using wheat for bio fuel but in turn imply that growing crops for food and selling at below the cost of production makes logical sense. The American's have already found that subsidizing bio fuels greatly reduces the amount of total farm support payments. If someone is prepared to build a plant and buy my crop as a source of energy and is willing to pay more than the present customers it helps improve my bottom line. Who knows with new technology it might even provide that net energy you are looking for.

[cottonpicken]

My two cents is that no wheat does not have the energy payback but....its strategic in the military sence of global politics.North America is energy hungry,with grain to burn.

[jensend]

craig: Jensend, WD9 you seem quite prepared to argue the logic of using wheat for bio fuel but in turn imply that growing crops for food and selling at below the cost of production makes logical sense

that's not the point. i thought we were talking about whether or not it made sense to convert wheat to a fossil fuel substitute. the energy balance is the issue. if wheat is an inefficient energy source and economically inefficient as a food then perhaps you should find another crop or another way of marketing your wheat. since when is it a given that you should be growing a crop that doesn't have a use that pays you back? you have to realize that as long as you grow grain that will to a large extent find its end use in a poor country you likely won't get rich off it. that still doesn't justify using it in another inefficient way.

[wd9]

Jensend, I agree, and then the question comes around back to craig. Do the new proposed wheat varieties of high sugar make energy balance positive? If so, what is it. Or do we just burn a bunch of extra hydrocarbons keeping people busy and then reduce the already pathetic Cdn farm subsidies for a select few involved in renewable energy?

(Probably not what you thought you were asking craig, but is fundamental to solid business and use of natural resources)

[craig]

While I would agree with the basis of you comments I would argue that net energy balance is very hard to define. Net energy will be different for everyone based on things like yield type of farming practice, distance from market and distance from supply of inputs. If we used your logic we would trash the tar sands because it has a poorer energy balance than conventional oil.

[TOM4CWB]

Craig,

Interesting subject... no doubt. There are 101 ways of balancing a biofuel system... as there are of providing the energy to seperate oil from sand at the tar sands!

We need to have the faith and hope that we will build a reliable and sustainable system... and I have no doubt in the capacity of the creative abilities of humans... to overcome "impossible" barriers.

Prosperity is a state of mind... and there is nothing more natural and sustainable than biofuels & energy made from plant material! Until 200 years ago... this was the only way it was done!

[Jay-mo]

I'm quite sure that wheat is at a bit of disadvantage compared to corn when comparing bushels of grain to liters of ethanol produced. The larger difference would be the yields that we are able to produce in western Canada.
100 bushel/acre winter wheat on a really good year compare to the midwest where corn yeilds of 200 bushel/acre are not uncommon.
I have visited several ethanol factories in South Dakota where they are built almost in sight of each other and they seem to have no concerns about being able to secure the raw corn to keep their plants running.