Some insight into problems with market economy

[Fransisco]

You don't believe the easily verifiable data comparing the closed market government wheat board system and the open market. Why would you believe any other comparisons? And what measurements would you consider proof that the freer and more Capitalistic a society is the better off they are?

[tower]

I would need a proof that is verifiable, one that compares some equally resource filled states, with similar education levels, and looks at the before and after pictures. One capitalist, one socialist, one communist, one bhuddist, a catholic, and probably a couple of others.

[Fransisco]

I can show you evidence that the poorest people in freer more Capitalist countries have higher incomes than the poorest people in less free countries. I can show you that life expectancy is greater,there is a higher standard of living, that there is less corruption and that the environment is better looked after.

Would these be acceptable measurements?

[TOM4CWB]

Interesting Discussion...

I would note that our present government in Canada... has set up the script... to advance a Canadian taxation system... that in provinces like Alberta and Ontario... will have the lowest tax rates of the G20... and perhaps the free world.

There are a very limited number of governance moves the Conservatives can make... it is heartening to see that reducing taxes... has been a very noteworthy acheivement... instead of liberals keeping our income and sliding it out to a select few 'freinds' who met their standards and ethics!'

Conservatives have reduced taxes for many middle class families... in a significant manner!

Minority Governments change governence. It is very hard to argue... that a different Conservative strategy was possible... in these circumstances.

The market economy... with good/proper regulation and governence... can't be beat!

There must be rules... for the rule of law to work!

[Fransisco]

I don't think these criteria "equally resource filled states, with similar education levels" have ever existed anywhere at any time.

[Fransisco]

The closest examples I can think of would be South Korea vs North Korea and East Germany vs West Germany.

[TOM4CWB]

Tower,

Your comparison of Communism and Capitalism... being practically as effective in manageing economies... cannot be effectively backed up by the majority of historical records.

Capitalism is supposed to respect private property rights... Communism does not. The 'Common Law' is the basis for all true prosperity... and of peace order and good government!

Just in case you missed it...

1. The Common Law is based on the Golden Rule, which states;
Do unto others as you would have done unto you;

And the Negative Golden Rule, which states;
Do not do unto others as you would not have others do unto you;

2. The two fundamental principals of common law:
ć Do not infringe upon the Rights, Freedoms or Property of others, and
Keep all contracts willingly, knowingly and intentionally

Common law maxims include:
a. That for every wrong there is a remedy,

b. The end does not justify the means,

c. Fundamental principals cannot be set aside to meet the demands of convenience or to prevent apparent hardship in a particular case,

d. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law,

e. Two wrongs do not make a right, and

f. One can enlarge the rights of the people, however they cannot be taken away without their informed consent.

Have a great day... we can work to build a better Canada!

[Fransisco]

The most Capitalistic places in the world today would be Hong Kong and Singapore, Australia, New Zealand the least would be Zimbabwe, the Conga,Myanmar, and Angola. I could dig out the measurements I talked about but I would think this would be pretty obvious.

[Fransisco]

Two countries that have transitioned to a freer more capitalist society are China and India, the results have been very positive. A good example again of a country that moved the other way is Zimbabwe.

[Fransisco]

And the Folks in East Germany are doing much better since they joined the West.

[vagabonddreamer]

francisco...you take the path of least resistance...by critizing the status quo...it is EASY to find fault with any crown involvement in industry...what is more DIFFICULT is proving that less or NO government is BEST...you keep using china, newzealan, east germany, etc as a panacea of CAPITALISM...when they are most definitely closer to the MIDDLE in democratic socialism...which proves keynes' theory...that absolutes will not work...again i find myself in the unenviable position of justifying government involvement in business because i BELIEVE in my heart that a complete absence would be devastating to the good of society...

ANYBODY can criticize what is there for all to see...it doesnt take an intellectual...obviously...

i envy the amount of time you have to watch television and collect you-tube clips...unfortunately my life is a little too busy for that...but until you show me...a country run in a LARGE "C"capitalist manner (best would be one that adheres to YOUR definition)...where there is NO government involvement in regulating ANYTHING in the free market...i cant see how you could think it would be anything but anarchy...

with respect to typifying...you seem like a smart guy...but you tend to lace your writing with condescending and snide remarks...trying to portray a somewhat intellectual superiority...this is "typical" of what i like to call the "nouvea-intellectual"....just like the nouvea-riche who have scads of money but dont know how to handle it...the "nouvea-intellectuals"...are not innately intelligent but RECENTLY intelligent...thus...they attempt intutive bullying in what would otherwise be a civil discusssion...kinda like my dad...who used to think if you couldnt win an argument by reason...just YELL louder than the other guy and call him names...lol....vs

[cottonpicken]

O.k vagabond.
Let me show you the depth and complexity of the subject.

I will give you one EXTREMELY simple economic question.

Why has gold since the very early seventies gone from 35 dollars an ounce to more than 900?

Please google the answer and find out.

It will be the first step in understanding what we are talking about.

Because right now you know less than nothing because you THINK you know something.

[vagabonddreamer]

(vagabonddreamer ROARS with laughter at cottonpicken)....i'll bet you are one of those tired old guys who have been beating this "gold" thing since the early seventies...you doggedly go on with it now oblivious to your own whining rhetoric...you keep trying to apply "square peg" economic models to a "round hole" global economy that doesnt fit...you spend your days mongering with others that share your beliefs with the misguided notion that you DO know more than anyone else....lol...i was involved in the placer mining industry in another lifetime and i saw the equivalent of you in THOSE days...bleary eyed old men that spent their broken lives chasing gold...and while you have to applaud them for persevering and chasing their dreams...you gotta wonder when it goes from drive to mania....

as you point out...i know LESS than nothing...this is good for me...it puts me in a FAR more enviable position than you...as i know LESS than nothing...it is a vaccuum...and we all know that nature abhors a vaccuum...so hopefully knowledge will RUSH in to fill the void...YOU on the other hand...know EVERYTHING...ergo...no valuable new knowledge will ever penetrate that mind teeming full of everything you KNOW to be true...so..not only am i better looking and younger than you...i am able to see both sides of an issue and still allow foreign ideas into my open mind...

you just stay with pistol whipping people..it is more your style i think...and maybe...1 year or 2 years or a hundred years from now...when you have beat that drum mindlessly and endlessly your prophetic ramblings might come true...and you can say i told you so...THAT is the only thing that makes miserable old coots like you happy anyway...

lmao..you guys are a riot...really...this is way more fun than heifer watch....vs

[tower]

Fransisco, I agree with you it is impossible to reach that comparison that would give me the info I need to reach a final decision on the relative merits of the various religions that we are following throughout the world. The Germanys and Koreas were torn apart by war, reources were different, and because of the respective allies the opportunities were different. And they are probably as you suggest the closest thing to comparables.

As I mentioned, the study of states has to include a history of resource aquisition, If an Imperial Britain had tried to live within its means rather than subjugating people all around the world, or if China were to recogmize human rights, or if Zimbabwe were trying to uplift its citizens rather than its leaders, their national courses would be radically different.

It isn't rhetorical argument. In the long run it doesn't matter what system is in place if we are responsible for our actions. As Tom4CWB said.

The trouble we are all agreed is that too many of us aren't, and when those people are in positions of power, private or public, their actions are amplified.

[tower]

PS. It is for these reasons that we need regulations, on our bureaucrats, no matter which religion they ask us to pursue.

Tom, There cannot be a government that recognizes property rights. It is always possible that the nation, in order function, may need to expropriate some property, intellectual or otherwise. If it was left up to a bunch of Libertarians they would come to the same conclusion.