Flax?

[parsley]

Lawsey, charliep, you view an audit trail as a pox from hell!

If the forty farmers have documented that they destroyed their grain, the audit trail should look elsewhere!

They initially grew it.

If one of them sold Triffid to a seed grower in the United States,for example, perhaps that is the trail to follow.

Audit trails are there for the reason to follow the trail! It's not to execute anyone. It is NOT to presume.

There is a paper trail.
Read that again
There is a paper trail.


If everyone has done their bookwork, and all grain is accounted for, there could well be insect pollination.

In which case, let's learn from it.


We had direct contact from Germany one time about a load of grain. The audit trail was a path of discovery.

That's what it's all about, charliep.

It is open.
It is accountable.
It is about discovery

We need to look at an audit trail as an asset.

Pars

[parsley]

And charlie, I'm not sure that it is Canada that is offside.

But the important part is that we cannot look like bloated cows milling in the pasture looking for gate when this blip came up.

After mad cow, surely we should know better.

There should be little problem tracing the shippers.
Little problem tracing the growers if they are Canadians.

But also easy to tell the EU that we have determined that it was NOT our growers, either.

After all, they are registered seed growers with a clear audit trail.

If the load was grown by growers in the USA and then came through Canada, to Begium and then to germany, for example, the response protocol should be different than if all forty growers absolutley destroyed all their Triffid.

Pars

[parsley]

One more thing charliep,
Your comment:

"Do you want the CGC to be the
executioner?"

Good grief. Yes.

I expect the CGC and the CFIA to do their job.

If it turns out to be Michael Ignatpuffpuff who grew Triffid illegally and shipped it as food grade, I still expect them to do their job.

A Registered Seed grower's audit trail is not about "covering ones ass" and I remain confident they've planned it thus. As I expect you would be.

[Fransisco]

"Is this the way the organic industry will deal with one of its own when
someone steps offside?"

No, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/dining/04cert.html?_r=1"> this is how they deal with it.</a>

And then they say, tut, tut it's no big deal "Processing and handling practices are not a permanent condition or alteration; rather, they can be adjusted the next morning, or repaired." Even though it took several months with several hundred people hospitalized and nine dead.

But, if a stray gene shows up in a flax muffin now that's a real problem.

I'm not anti-organic but the totally disproportionate response here is truly breath taking to behold.

[bucket]

Yep you guys keep arguing. Lets look at the facts:

Either someone grew triffid that shouldn't have. He's liable. Plain and simple.

Or the grain commision didn't do their job in detecting this stuff. They are liable and then the guy that grew it also.

Let me repeat what I said before. Percy was taken to the supreme court for growing a registered variety - he kept his seed. The persons responsible for this did a greater misdeed and should be put through the same wringer and then held liable for the losses to western canadian farmers. Its that simple.

But as long as the Flax commission, the cgc, the cfia are all pointing fingers it will all be forgotten soon with the costs put directly onto farmers.

Do I think someone is responsible for this mess - Yep. Plain and simple.

[parsley]

There are seed growers who work with organics. And get certified.

I would expect the CGC and the CFIA to deal with them the same way as they should deal with conventional. Same thing CFIA dealing with say farm abbatoirs...conventional/organic cattle alike.

With food preparation, and restaurants, I expect inspection to be thorough and timely and use the teeth they are equipped with to shut down food places serving either organic OR conventional

As your article states :

"Although the rules governing organic food require health inspections and pest-management plans, organic certification technically has nothing to do with food safety."

Organics can trace the food supply to the deli? Yup.

Dirty deli? ...health inspectors shut it down.

I think I was very clear about the point I was making.

The flax fiasco is about GMO flax entering the food market in a country who's regulations do not permit it.

Like entering a country to sell marijuana even though the regulations say you cannot.

You would, I have no doubt, present the same argument for Mayjane....and I can just hear you say it, "Their regs are wrong" "My buyer is wrong"

Now, you can trash the organic growers audit trail if you wish. Not perfect. I've said that before. But it works quite well most of the time. But putting organics aside, the Triffid seed growers audit trail we are talking about should still be sound, should it not?

And a good place to look to solve this puzzle. Are you opposed to the examination of seed growers audit trail? Pars

[Fransisco]

Bucket,the marker they found is common for a number of GM crops. It may be triffid,it may be something else. It may be somebodies fault,it may be an accident or something completely out of everyones control. We just don't know yet. I think we will,but it might take some time.

There is a very strong incentive to get to the bottom of this.I don't see anyone just dropping it.

[Fransisco]

Pars,you're being silly again,eating a gene has never had any kind of effect on anyone. You can't get high on DNA.

Once we have enough evidence we can talk about smuggling. But right now you're just guessing.

The reason I keep coming back to the EU zero tolerance rules is that its one of the ways we can fix the problem so we don't have to go through this again.

But maybe your not interested in that.

[Fransisco]

Zero tolerance means that what happened to flax can happen to any shipment, of any crop, at any time. Like I said before, it is very relevant, and if it doesn't change things like this are going to happen again and again and again.

Personally I think we need the European marketplace and they need us. It's a two way relationship and as such we should be able to come to some kind of a reasonable agreement.

[Choice2U]

I still don't understand how organic flax would be affected by this. Parsley, you say that there is a definite paper trail right from cradle to grave with organics. If so, why would there be any concern by the EU about a genetic marker showing up in organics seeing as there is NO way that an organic grower could get away with breaking the rules. Seems that if the EU is painting the commercial, non IP'd flax with the same brush as they paint the organic IP process, then they are just using this for their own political/trade tarriff purpose. For the organic industry to be hurt by this shipment, either the EU doesn't trust Canada's organic certification process or the EU is playing politics. This assumes there is no cross pollination issue between organics and conventional and so far it seems that the problem was not cross pollination but rather someone possibly trying to sneak something through the conventional system.

[parsley]

Yes there is a paper trail.
Effects:

Just found this choice4U,
1. There is insect pollination. Over the years it can add up to a lot of seeds and multiply exponentially..
2. Many conventional seedgrowers have their cleaning plants become certified and they clean both organic and conventional flax. Risk.
3. Reputation. "Did you hear about the food poisining in Widget's restaruant? " "Hey, Canadians developed GM Triffid flax."
4. Organic growers have purchased seedstock from seedgrowers. Have any seedgrowers been Triffid growers? Trucks. Combines. Bins etc.

From what I sense, organics is going to be okay. But the overall image of Canadian flax is tarnished. Pars