BEST round 2

[Ron]

Thanks for clearing this up ado. The first thread was getting to long and clumsy for my blackberry.



"ado089 posted Apr 9, 2010 11:31
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Enough is enough. These systems, and there are many of them, use one or all of the following principles. Seed primers to give young plants a shot of esential nutrients to get going, if you beleive in this make sure they contain a good dose of zinc. Zinc drives germination and growth hormone production. Second is the in crop stress releiver. This is generaly a balanced blend plus micros apllied with or near herbicide, hail or moisture stress. These prodcuts are desinged to give the plant a "snack" in order to tide them over until the entire sytem recovers from the stress shock. Be careful with these as they can "heat up" your chemical. Third is using organic acids to modify the soil chemistry/physics in furrow. By adding these material you are creating a pH buffer and modifying the cation carrying capacity of the imediate area. This causes more water to be held in the soil and encourages microbial growth and activity, I think some products may add suggar or starch to accelerate and amplify this effect. My advice is to get these product in furrow even if they suggest you can broadcast it. The fourth is a little more out there but it is a basicaly a spreading agent that you spray on the soil in orderd to break the surface tension of water to encourage more and deeper water infiltration. Are these products snake oil? Probably not. Are they right for everyone? I doubt it. These products in one form or another have been around for a long time but are not wide spread because they are difficult to understand and very situation specific in their applications, therefore they are not a fit for everyone. My advise is to identify if you have a problem and then seek out a product to solve it. Another note is that by using zero till for 10 years you will likely start to see alot of the same results as some of the soil modification products. No matter what the product claim don't cut much more than 10-15% of your normal/recomended fertility program and monitor the results with a benchmark soil test. This includes ortho phosphate, ESN, jumpstart, Avail, Agrotain, foliar top ups and any other product that claims to be more efficient. Also be cautious about products that cost less than about $3-4/ac and claim under 7-10% yield gain. This is phycological pivot point and the results are very difficult to measure or notice. Good products cost good money. Hope this helps."


Does anybody have any first hand experience using these systems? (either from guys who USED THEM and liked them or guys who actually TRIED THEM and they did not work)

Do they just enhance your existing fertility program letting you lower rates slightly while maintaining or increasing yields?

How long untill you see results? The margins are so tight this year I find myself looking for stuff to cut instead of trying to increase production.

I am more likely to try them as a supplement to my program rather than a replacement. (but not on the whole farm for sure. Probably not on the field in front of my living room window either, somewhere the neighbors cant see very well and I can pretend isnt there if it is a wreck)

[seabass]

We have used the seed primers and I believe they work well particularly when the soil is cold. The top dress products like 6-9-9 or triple 20 are more for a boost when the crop is under stress. I personally don't think they are worth the effort. Using a liquid fertilizer like 10-34-0 or 28-0-0 are better in the long run. They just have to be used correctly so as not to hurt the crop.
Like said in the previous thread most of these products have some merit. You just have to be a wise producer and use what works for you or has been proven to work for you.

[ado089]

My experience is with the Omex products. The seed primers seem to make for a more aggresive plant out of the ground until about tillering then it's hard to tell the diffrence. The primer does come in a Cu or Mg version that I would suggest is a better delivery method than dry for micros.

I've seen the C3 work well to help a crop recover from hail a couple of times and P3 works well with odyssey to prevent the shock and yellowing that typicaly occurs with that product.

I do have my eye on some of the UAP products now that seem to have some merrit; N-pact, Black Lable Zn and Re-Nforce K. These products are based on similar technolgies that put the N-P-K-S in forms that are absorbed and translocated throught the plant alot better. I don't think people have figured out efficiency vs. minning on these products yet. Ortho phosphate still really troubles me, no matter how I look at it 2.5lbs/ac does not equal 28lbs/ac in the long run.

[ry0972]

Also have used Omex primer and C3 on Canola. Jumpstart as well. I feel the primer made a huge difference with the frost last spring(didn't find ANY damage on mine and adjoining fields had 10-20%.
I will be putting primer on all my Canola again this year, not cutting fert rates and watching to maybe apply C3 or 20-20-20 with my Liberty as I did last year. I will tissue test again as well as go by the rainfall (or lack of) to make the decision on the foliar products.

[bestaustralia]

Hello,

My name is Darryl Paulhus I am the GM for Best in Australia. I grew up on a farm near Prince Albert Sask.

Got sent this link by a mate back in Canada. Please if you have any questions regarding Best CFF please look on the website under contact us and phone Kelvin Sander he would be more than happy to discus results or to tell you about the many farmers in Sask and Manitoba using CFF.

Earlier posts mention the amount of organic matter increase. There is 2 million pounds in a plough acre (6 1/2" deep) 1% OM would be 20,000 pounds per acre or 10 tons.

In Australia we have seen OM increases of .5 to .7% per year using Best products in a very dry climate 200 to 250mm rain in the growing season.

[silverback]

Ummm, I guess you didn't read round 1.

How about you post some verified, replicated trial data on your web site for those of us that are interested to look at and investigate. Some of us like to read things first before calling a salesman to get the big pitch.

It would also be quite neat to see a detailed analysis of what it is that you are actually trying to get us to apply to our land. I'm sorry, but we will not purchase anything just because neighbor x did last year.

I can't believe how difficult it is to get an upfront answer from the actual company about this product. Why is that?

[freewheat]

Tell me about it silverback. I also noticed your numbers for OM, and the increases thereof. My goodness, I am trying to figure out what crop you grow that yields up to 0.7 times 20 000 lbs an acre, or 14 000 lbs an acre of DRY residue, of which every pound is organic matter. And so in 10 years you should see an organic matter increase of 5-7%. WOW.

I too would like to be told some concrete info and not go to a website that has a couple phone numbers on it. Just a skeptical guy I am.

[Ron]

http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/objtwr/imported_assets/content/fcp/gmcrops/60_unknown.pdf

You are a wing nut. The object of BEST round 2 was to hear from producers who use products, not hacks who peddle them. If you want to make a sale tell us what the hell it is first.
Here, in a forum where it can be challenged and debated. I am not opposed to trying new products (I use Omex) but tell me what it is, let the forum debate it, and I will sift through the first hand knowledge of my peers. There are some pretty smart guys here (or is that why you are vague?)

[Ron]

In page 2 of the cut and paste article above you claim only 2,4-D can kill GM canola in canada? You're an idiot or a liar.

[bestaustralia]

Obviously you all have done your internet homework. The article that was done was not taken in context as we were at a field day in Australia and the reporter was listening to our conversations and obviously did not write the whole conversation. As journalists do they picked through the conversation and edited to look bad against GM crops as it is a very touchy subject in Australia as it is not wanted here by most of the farmers as it has shown no benefits to date in Australia.

Best products are made from natural extracts and other products in Canada incorporate good quality nutrients into this mix. All are made in Edmonton Alberta. CFIA testing is ongoing in Canada. (Sorry to be vague on the exact ingredients but with corporate greed there unscrupulous people out there who would sooner steal someone Else's products than spend the time to develop there own)

Any reference to OM increases I have said are off of soil tests done by accredited labs used by professionals. How this is achieved in the soil is through an increase in biological activity.

Trial data for Best will be up on the website soon, I am told the new website will be operating in the next few weeks.

We have done replicated data in Australia and this has shown the benefit of using Best products along with reduced Nitrogen use.

Nobody is trying to give you the sales "pitch" as you said, all we are trying to do is help educate farmers that is are things you can do on your farm to help reduce the dependence on chemical fertilizer.



Best does not have dedicated sales people per say all the people that are involved in Best both here in Australia and Canada are either farmers themselves who have seen the benefits or people that own/manage ag businesses.

We realise that there are skeptics to any new idea especially to a more biological way to farm.

[frustrated1]

"all we are trying to do is help educate farmers"

Well, bring it on, that's all we're asking. You will not be getting a cheque for snake oil in a can. We want the education.

[seabass]

Fellas,I like you would like to know whats in it and how good it works(according to farmers results) but I can see why they are taking the try it, it works trust me approach. If you had taken the time to produce a product that helped farmers improve their soil,increase productivity and hence improve the bottom line for not much cost. Then to have a large company come in take over the market and run you out of business. I wouldn't like it and I don't think you would either. I know when we try new products we try to find out as much as we can about them. Then we try. If it works we keep using them or not. Maybe on this one using without knowing as much will pay off. JMO

[silverback]

Sorry, still not buying in yet.

Tell me how it is that you can get approval to sell a product in Canada and all you can say is "...trust me it will work just fine" without having to tell people what it is?

Natural extracts and other products? Good quality ingredients in the mix? Made in Edmonton (by whom)? CFIA testing is ongoing (when will it be done?)

Why do I get the feeling that if we went out and spread a bunch of DDG or brewers mash on our fields I would get the same results?

How about you name just one big time operator (in Canada) that uses your products on every acre and would be willing to swear to their efficacy? and would be open to taking phone calls from other farmers?

[furrowtickler]

Sorry to crash the party here, but like I have said we have talked to three independent farmers and the the results are all the same - possitive. I am not selling / promoting it. These are very, very credible scorces. We are going to try it based on first hand knowledge not some trade show spoke-a-meter b/s. Remeber the earth was flat according to the most inteligent minds b/f and during th time of Columbus, when the Sumerians knew other wise several thousand years before!
Playoff draft!!! Beer!! I will be lucky to get 2nd last. I will have a better reason/excuse tomorow. - Man, did we need this rain!

[Ron]

I will try to keep an open mind, I just finished a 15 hour shift last night and was on my blackberry while my helper drove back to camp as I couldnt see straight any more so I was beyond bitchy. I hope you keep us posted furrowtickler, it is just funny that these products are around but all we hear is the salesman selling, we seldom hear from the people that use them (and with the anonymity (SP?) of the internet why not admit if it was a wreck?