Edge on liberty link canola

[macdon02]

Anyone using this what rates are you using on the edge if cut what restrictions as far as recropping next year are you following

[Ron]

Isnt edge weak on barley the same as liberty? How does the $$$ compare vs liberty?
Is this to replace the liberty or just enhance control?

[macdon02]

just using it to enhance control using 17 lbs in fall and 12 lbs in spring. Cost is 12/ac on spring rate, not looking for complete control just set the weeds back for 1-2 weeks so liberty will work better. Tired of spraying second time, am doing this because I seed canola first then oats, only have 400 acres wheat out of 6500 ac. I am hoping to seed w wheat this fall on to the edge ground or oats next year, but both options are making my guts turn. Think I might be stuck with barley that doesn't pencil(i hate chasing the malt carrot) or I guess i could try peas? Any thoughts appreciated.

[AG_guy]

Never put peas after canola. The best is wheat. Canola does not host mycorrhiza fungi and peas need this fungi .The lack of this fungi has least impact on wheat.As much as 30% yield loss can be achived growing peas after canola. If you're needing a better weed kill with liberty find yourself a good foliar nutrient one that has everything in it. It will help the plant intake the chemical. It masks the chemical. As well foliar applied is worth 10x more then ground . So if your lacking any nitrient the foliar will help out there as well. Just make sure it's compatable. One pound foliar applied is the same as 10 pounds soil applied. As far as the malt carrot reduce your spring applied N rates.I would try no more then 80 lbs/N. Then foliar apply N later on with herbicide if needed. Over loading the ground with N is wasteful as well keeps your crops green longer. As much as 50% of N applied in spring will never make it into your plants ( theory behind the greenseeker and many other documents). Reducing N will let the plant mature more naturally and a small amount of N applied foliar will not increase protiens just help in plants health and devolpment.

[macdon02]

do you work for nexus?

[AG_guy]

Nope. agronomist.

[AG_guy]

Unemployed agronomist actually

[ado089]

There could be a reason for that, foliar is closer to 5:1 providing it's in a form that doesn't burn the leaf and is plant available, there's alot of snake oil out there. Providing you have good organic matter levels and good moisture through the season and you're not making edge or any other form of trifluralin, or triallate a habit you shouldn't have alot of problem, maybe some tiller loss on erroded hill tops. But a guy has to ask if all the hassel, cost and yield loss, rotation restrictions is outweighing the couple of bushel difference you'll see by going with an RR canola. The yield gap has closed alot in the last couple of years...and no I don't work for a seed co.

[macdon02]

Thanks guys sorry for sounding cynical but you know.lol The reason I switched to invigor is because rr volunteers are starting to give grief. All IP acres and the only way I get liberty to work is on later seeded canola just doesn't cut it on early seeded crop. Not warm enough when first app goes on and not enough up when burn off is done. Not sure if you follow the problem, I don't seed alot of wheat or barley 400 ac of cps on 6300 this year no barley. My rotation is half oats half canola, with a little w wheat when I get it in. RR worked great in this rot. cleaned out w.oats and set things up nice for oats. But last year sprayed some ll fields 3 times, centurion and 2 shots liberty(not doing it again). Just looking for new angle on problem, and oddly enough it isn't the grasses causing the biggest problems, been using prepass every spring and now switching to fall app on oats dessicate religiously, frontline in crop, trying to throw everything at the land to get it clean. Lambs quarters, hemp nettle, cleavers, odd ball crap.. yellow whitlow grass, pygmy weed, as I get one problem cleaned up new ones show I guess this is to be expected just thought maybe switching away from group 2 in cereals to more preemerge activity would get better results. thx

[ado089]

Oats will be hit the hardest by edge. I don't think you'll ever get away from RR volounteers even if you never grow it ever again, but your prepass should keep those away until you need to spray. Switching from frontline into 3/4 rate prestige or that new stuff, Stellar I think, will notch up your control on those harder to kill weeds, Infinity might work too but I think it's a little overated for the price and it seems to be a little hit or miss. I would be curious to see what Arysta says about fall applied everest on your ww, it might open up recroping restrictions with that.

[AG_guy]

and ado actually foliar is 8 or even 10:1. And you apply no more then 4 pounds .You can apply a foliar N for about 75 cents a pound so 4 pounds will cost you 3 dollars or go put 40 pounds in the ground and see what it costs you and it is the same thing.And 30-50% of that N will be lost and never make it into the plant. But hey i guess there guys out there who have money to throw away, must be alot of money in farming.

And whats this with the snake oil stuff. half the guys that had a snake oil problem is because they didn't listen or didn't take the time to use it the proper way. There's more to farming then fert and chem fert and chem. Some of the top yielding guys in the world use your so called snake oils. if you don't understand don't call them snake oils. In certain applications 90% of your snake oils has a puprose and will work. But in the world of Bigger faster cheaper they don't. And alot of time i think people are afraid to actually try something new and to follow instructions. At one time VRT and infrared mapping and remote sensing were all hog wash until guys seen other guys using it and making more money or having a better crop ( that hits a nerve) then all of a sudden it good. Open your minds and follow instructions try new products on a small scale. These companies out there don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on there product just to get your few hundred for a trial. Why do you think most every huge company has a research department, to find new ways of making money with less cost. If a company like microsoft or fiat did things the same year after year with out change and didn't try new things they would be nothing today and struggling to stay a float.

[ado089]

I didn't say that they were all snake oil. I beleive that there needs to be alot of rethinking of nutrient management. Over the last couple of years I've made alot of changes in my nutrition program. Starting with ortho phos and zinc/copper seed dressings in combination with jumpstart and still some 11-52-0 (away from nitrogen to improve uptake) to enusre early season phos availability while still looking after season long needs. On the nitrogen side I've switched from using far less urea and more into ESN to prevent frivalous leaf and straw growth, followed by a late season application of triazone to drive yield and protein. This year I've cut potash out and will be applying potassium thiosulfate if moisture stress becomes a problem because pottasium isn't soil available when it's dry and that's when the crop needs it the most. Micros go on with the fungicide but finding a good plant available micro is tricky. Wiht the next machinery upgrade all this will be done in conjunction with VRN. The trick with all of this is that it's never about saving money, quite often it cost more, but it's about making sure money spent is actualy getting used more efficiently.

The problem with alot of this technology is that up until recently we didn't know how to use it. VRN for example was geared toward getting consitent yield across the entire field instead of getting the best yield possible for each area of the field. There are also alot of crap products out there when it comes to foliar fert, they either aren't available to the plant or they cause alot of tissue damage leading to reduced photosynthesis and opening the door to disease. There are very few people in the industry that know enough to tell you the difference between a good product and "snake oil". Also as alot of farmers have learn't the hard way getting the best yield doesn't alway mean making the most $/acre and at the end of the day that's the goal. After all if all this stuff worked as good as advertised we should be getting 150bu/ac wheat and canola crops.

[furrowtickler]

ado, is your ortho phos Alpine? We use alpine for all our phos needs now and then folliar apply either dynagrow and/or GRX with the herbicides. This combination is keeping our fert bill in check while maintaining or actualy improving yeilds. I agree with your thought process Ag_man, your right on the money.

[ado089]

I had been using Synergize as a seed dressing but that was a bit of a hassel and got pretty dusty. Now I'm using Black Label Zn. You get a bit of N and some Zn in there wich helps with drive growth hormone production and sugar production. They recomend a gallon per acre to get the equivalent of 20lbs/ac of phos, but I cut that back to 1/4 to 1/3 gal/ac and put it right on the seed. This formulation is supposed to remain available longer than normal ortho. My biggest concern, right or wrong, with ortho is that if it's available to the plant, it's available to be tied up by the soil. That's my reasoning to sticking to that 5lb mark on ortho and using jump start and another 15lbs of 11-52-0 for the rest. If it works good this year I might look at going at the gallon rate and using it as a starter blend in row, It would essentialy let me triple shoot with a double shoot system and a 500gal tank would be good for two days of seeding. 1gal/ac cost $15/ac.

[Hopperbin]

I have to disagree on the peas after canola, especially the 30 percent loss anyway, it has worked for me I think I made better than growing wheat after the canola, I just think it is harder to controle weeds in peas after the canola crop, and I have lost on the weed control but if kept clean and sprayed on time it worked OK for me. Then canola back on the peas stubble produces a nice canola crop. Perhaps my soil type has something to do with it. I would not make this rotation permament but worked in a pinch.