Edge on liberty link canola

[AG_guy]

and ado actually foliar is 8 or even 10:1. And you apply no more then 4 pounds .You can apply a foliar N for about 75 cents a pound so 4 pounds will cost you 3 dollars or go put 40 pounds in the ground and see what it costs you and it is the same thing.And 30-50% of that N will be lost and never make it into the plant. But hey i guess there guys out there who have money to throw away, must be alot of money in farming.

And whats this with the snake oil stuff. half the guys that had a snake oil problem is because they didn't listen or didn't take the time to use it the proper way. There's more to farming then fert and chem fert and chem. Some of the top yielding guys in the world use your so called snake oils. if you don't understand don't call them snake oils. In certain applications 90% of your snake oils has a puprose and will work. But in the world of Bigger faster cheaper they don't. And alot of time i think people are afraid to actually try something new and to follow instructions. At one time VRT and infrared mapping and remote sensing were all hog wash until guys seen other guys using it and making more money or having a better crop ( that hits a nerve) then all of a sudden it good. Open your minds and follow instructions try new products on a small scale. These companies out there don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on there product just to get your few hundred for a trial. Why do you think most every huge company has a research department, to find new ways of making money with less cost. If a company like microsoft or fiat did things the same year after year with out change and didn't try new things they would be nothing today and struggling to stay a float.

[ado089]

I didn't say that they were all snake oil. I beleive that there needs to be alot of rethinking of nutrient management. Over the last couple of years I've made alot of changes in my nutrition program. Starting with ortho phos and zinc/copper seed dressings in combination with jumpstart and still some 11-52-0 (away from nitrogen to improve uptake) to enusre early season phos availability while still looking after season long needs. On the nitrogen side I've switched from using far less urea and more into ESN to prevent frivalous leaf and straw growth, followed by a late season application of triazone to drive yield and protein. This year I've cut potash out and will be applying potassium thiosulfate if moisture stress becomes a problem because pottasium isn't soil available when it's dry and that's when the crop needs it the most. Micros go on with the fungicide but finding a good plant available micro is tricky. Wiht the next machinery upgrade all this will be done in conjunction with VRN. The trick with all of this is that it's never about saving money, quite often it cost more, but it's about making sure money spent is actualy getting used more efficiently.

The problem with alot of this technology is that up until recently we didn't know how to use it. VRN for example was geared toward getting consitent yield across the entire field instead of getting the best yield possible for each area of the field. There are also alot of crap products out there when it comes to foliar fert, they either aren't available to the plant or they cause alot of tissue damage leading to reduced photosynthesis and opening the door to disease. There are very few people in the industry that know enough to tell you the difference between a good product and "snake oil". Also as alot of farmers have learn't the hard way getting the best yield doesn't alway mean making the most $/acre and at the end of the day that's the goal. After all if all this stuff worked as good as advertised we should be getting 150bu/ac wheat and canola crops.

[furrowtickler]

ado, is your ortho phos Alpine? We use alpine for all our phos needs now and then folliar apply either dynagrow and/or GRX with the herbicides. This combination is keeping our fert bill in check while maintaining or actualy improving yeilds. I agree with your thought process Ag_man, your right on the money.

[ado089]

I had been using Synergize as a seed dressing but that was a bit of a hassel and got pretty dusty. Now I'm using Black Label Zn. You get a bit of N and some Zn in there wich helps with drive growth hormone production and sugar production. They recomend a gallon per acre to get the equivalent of 20lbs/ac of phos, but I cut that back to 1/4 to 1/3 gal/ac and put it right on the seed. This formulation is supposed to remain available longer than normal ortho. My biggest concern, right or wrong, with ortho is that if it's available to the plant, it's available to be tied up by the soil. That's my reasoning to sticking to that 5lb mark on ortho and using jump start and another 15lbs of 11-52-0 for the rest. If it works good this year I might look at going at the gallon rate and using it as a starter blend in row, It would essentialy let me triple shoot with a double shoot system and a 500gal tank would be good for two days of seeding. 1gal/ac cost $15/ac.

[Hopperbin]

I have to disagree on the peas after canola, especially the 30 percent loss anyway, it has worked for me I think I made better than growing wheat after the canola, I just think it is harder to controle weeds in peas after the canola crop, and I have lost on the weed control but if kept clean and sprayed on time it worked OK for me. Then canola back on the peas stubble produces a nice canola crop. Perhaps my soil type has something to do with it. I would not make this rotation permament but worked in a pinch.

[furrowtickler]

Where do you source your black lable?

[AG_guy]

It's great to hear guys are educating themselves on new products and actually trying them. Anything i talk about comes from some report i have dug up from the basement somewere. Reprots done by ag canada sask man and alberta. Some of theses studies go back 20 years maybe 30 but they still hold today. Anyone see in the western producer wherer herbicieds ( fops and dims) rob you of yield, buy using them it costs you a few bushel. I picked it out right away. If this is true and it does cost you say 2 bushel of wheat , add that onto your spray bill and was buying the cheapest chem really worth it or buying it just to get that chem program rebate ? It amazes me that they can tell what a planet is made up of without being there and millions of miles away but they can't tell a farmer how to get the best yield the easiest and cheapest. It seems like a huge game who can keep the farmer more confused so that they will buy there product. I have worked for a consulting company retails large and small and even maybe a company you guys would call a snake oil company and i 100% support what they do and sell. I never look at the product i look how it how a product will relieve stress on a plant. I belive most of the land out there is sick and the crops you guys grow are sick because of what ever and thats why your yield or low and subject to disease insects and why weather has such a huge impact on your crop. I think with a healthy soil and plant weather disease and insects will be less of a factor on yieled loss. In the usa they have found in the veggie crops the higher the sugar content in the plant the less insects will eat it, maybe thats why one field will get eaten and the field across the road remains almost untouched. Companies have made farming so confusing it makes it tough on everyone it makes it hard to believe anyone. I truly believe that educating yourself and stop listening so much to reps in the field and guys mastered in marketing and you will have more money in your pocket.
Without the farmer the world would starve. You guys pay the salaries of every man or women that is in the agriculture retail field but alot of them just see you as another sale. there are marketing courses on how to get you to buy from them i refuse to take them and i got kicked out of my first one.

What i write on here is not to offend anyone but to offer help. thats why i don't reconize snake oils. If i think any product will help i will mention it. It's up to you to take it with an open mind research it yourself and make the final decision , phone the comany or rep yourself and try to get a free sample or a deal on it. And remember 50% of the products used on the farm today were likely labeld as a snake oil when they first came out.

[ado089]

Agguy, I your studdies have you ever come across any research on the the effect of herbicide timming on yield seperate of weed preasure. For example horizon at 1 leaf through to flag compared to everest 1 leaf through flag. My though process around this is that much of the yield is determined in the 4-5 leaf stage, which is when we would normally spray. Is there an advantage to spraying at 1 or 2 leaf staging with something like everest and giving the crop a chance to recover before it starts setting yield?

[AG_guy]

In wheat the head is being formed at about the 4-6 leaf stage. once you feel the first joint in the stem nothing can be done to increase or decrease head size. This is the thought of the Opti-crop system by appplying 28-0-0 when the head is developing or just before. The extra nitrogen will spike growth and a larger head should mean more grain site to fill. Spraying earlier i would feel would possibly decrease stress in the plant but you may run into the problem of missing weeds which is why your spraying. And if you miss any weeds the cost of your time plus fuel plus hours on your sprayer plus the cost of spray would be quite expensive. I talked to some hudderites and they told me they had some 28-0-0 left over and just to see what happened they put it on there wheat at the 3-4 leaf stage. They said you could see were they added the 28-0-0 all through out the season and they figured what little they put on they got about 2-3 bushel more. But due to the extra pass they never did it agian on a large scale. So i would maybe use say everest with a bit of puma in it at the earliest the 4 leaf stage and i would find a nutient solution to go with it. I strongly believe with adding in a proper nutrient solution at spray time would help with disease. I healthy crop can fight it off more. And if you can avoid using a fungicide then the crop can better use that energy to fill thr grain sites. I would also encourage you to follow that thought process and try spraying a strip or small section at the one to two leaf stage. heck i would section off a ¼ of an acre spray it by hand at that stage then when i spray the whole field cover that little section with plastic and see what happens what do you have to loss really. A bit of time and a few dollars on plastic. Other guys may think your nuts but YOU will learn something and you may find it works.
But i have found nothing on paper just what i have learned from other guys. But the head is being developed before the 5-6 leaf stage. One thing i will say with applying 28-0-0 by itself at the 4-5 leaf stage does work but it does require a rain to drive it into the ground. And 50% of the N is plant available right away. It is a chance you take if there is no rain so i would like move to a nutrient added to the spray. As well taking a tissue test which is cheap before you spray will tell you what that plant is lacking. Its a cheap quik test and your last chance to add any nutrient.There are some good companies out there that just sell individual nutrients and most all are compatable with spray chemicals.

[furrowtickler]

We have sprayed dyna-grow and mega-grow on wheat with very good results at the 4-5 leaf stage 10-15% yeild increase and a 1% protien jump. After the 6 leaf stage there was no yeild advantage but the protien jump was still there.
Ag guy, unfortunately there are very few like you in the fert/chem business, keep it up!!