Edge on liberty link canola

[furrowtickler]

Where do you source your black lable?

[AG_guy]

It's great to hear guys are educating themselves on new products and actually trying them. Anything i talk about comes from some report i have dug up from the basement somewere. Reprots done by ag canada sask man and alberta. Some of theses studies go back 20 years maybe 30 but they still hold today. Anyone see in the western producer wherer herbicieds ( fops and dims) rob you of yield, buy using them it costs you a few bushel. I picked it out right away. If this is true and it does cost you say 2 bushel of wheat , add that onto your spray bill and was buying the cheapest chem really worth it or buying it just to get that chem program rebate ? It amazes me that they can tell what a planet is made up of without being there and millions of miles away but they can't tell a farmer how to get the best yield the easiest and cheapest. It seems like a huge game who can keep the farmer more confused so that they will buy there product. I have worked for a consulting company retails large and small and even maybe a company you guys would call a snake oil company and i 100% support what they do and sell. I never look at the product i look how it how a product will relieve stress on a plant. I belive most of the land out there is sick and the crops you guys grow are sick because of what ever and thats why your yield or low and subject to disease insects and why weather has such a huge impact on your crop. I think with a healthy soil and plant weather disease and insects will be less of a factor on yieled loss. In the usa they have found in the veggie crops the higher the sugar content in the plant the less insects will eat it, maybe thats why one field will get eaten and the field across the road remains almost untouched. Companies have made farming so confusing it makes it tough on everyone it makes it hard to believe anyone. I truly believe that educating yourself and stop listening so much to reps in the field and guys mastered in marketing and you will have more money in your pocket.
Without the farmer the world would starve. You guys pay the salaries of every man or women that is in the agriculture retail field but alot of them just see you as another sale. there are marketing courses on how to get you to buy from them i refuse to take them and i got kicked out of my first one.

What i write on here is not to offend anyone but to offer help. thats why i don't reconize snake oils. If i think any product will help i will mention it. It's up to you to take it with an open mind research it yourself and make the final decision , phone the comany or rep yourself and try to get a free sample or a deal on it. And remember 50% of the products used on the farm today were likely labeld as a snake oil when they first came out.

[ado089]

Agguy, I your studdies have you ever come across any research on the the effect of herbicide timming on yield seperate of weed preasure. For example horizon at 1 leaf through to flag compared to everest 1 leaf through flag. My though process around this is that much of the yield is determined in the 4-5 leaf stage, which is when we would normally spray. Is there an advantage to spraying at 1 or 2 leaf staging with something like everest and giving the crop a chance to recover before it starts setting yield?

[AG_guy]

In wheat the head is being formed at about the 4-6 leaf stage. once you feel the first joint in the stem nothing can be done to increase or decrease head size. This is the thought of the Opti-crop system by appplying 28-0-0 when the head is developing or just before. The extra nitrogen will spike growth and a larger head should mean more grain site to fill. Spraying earlier i would feel would possibly decrease stress in the plant but you may run into the problem of missing weeds which is why your spraying. And if you miss any weeds the cost of your time plus fuel plus hours on your sprayer plus the cost of spray would be quite expensive. I talked to some hudderites and they told me they had some 28-0-0 left over and just to see what happened they put it on there wheat at the 3-4 leaf stage. They said you could see were they added the 28-0-0 all through out the season and they figured what little they put on they got about 2-3 bushel more. But due to the extra pass they never did it agian on a large scale. So i would maybe use say everest with a bit of puma in it at the earliest the 4 leaf stage and i would find a nutient solution to go with it. I strongly believe with adding in a proper nutrient solution at spray time would help with disease. I healthy crop can fight it off more. And if you can avoid using a fungicide then the crop can better use that energy to fill thr grain sites. I would also encourage you to follow that thought process and try spraying a strip or small section at the one to two leaf stage. heck i would section off a ¼ of an acre spray it by hand at that stage then when i spray the whole field cover that little section with plastic and see what happens what do you have to loss really. A bit of time and a few dollars on plastic. Other guys may think your nuts but YOU will learn something and you may find it works.
But i have found nothing on paper just what i have learned from other guys. But the head is being developed before the 5-6 leaf stage. One thing i will say with applying 28-0-0 by itself at the 4-5 leaf stage does work but it does require a rain to drive it into the ground. And 50% of the N is plant available right away. It is a chance you take if there is no rain so i would like move to a nutrient added to the spray. As well taking a tissue test which is cheap before you spray will tell you what that plant is lacking. Its a cheap quik test and your last chance to add any nutrient.There are some good companies out there that just sell individual nutrients and most all are compatable with spray chemicals.

[furrowtickler]

We have sprayed dyna-grow and mega-grow on wheat with very good results at the 4-5 leaf stage 10-15% yeild increase and a 1% protien jump. After the 6 leaf stage there was no yeild advantage but the protien jump was still there.
Ag guy, unfortunately there are very few like you in the fert/chem business, keep it up!!

[AG_guy]

Thanks Furrow i'll try but it's hard with out farmers support and you know i won't get any support from dealers. I actually was selling Dynagro last spring but for what ever reason nobody seamed interested. I coudn't do it anymore it was costing to much money trying to make a dollar. If guys only seen what i do, they would know why everything cost's so much and they are fitting the bill. I'm just trying to put alittle more money in there pocket . There a few farmers out there that are stepping away from the pack and are finding out these things really do work and they do help. I have looked into dynagro myself and i have not found one thing in there that has ever had a bad rap. Anyways furrow i'm glad things are working for you and you have 10-15% more yield and the others have well lets just say not 10-15% more yield.
And lets not forget all the products we use today that at one time was possibly considered "snakeoil" and how do you get oil from a snake anyways LOL !!!

[ado089]

Now I'm getting poo pooed on for warning guys not to buy into everything some sales rep tells them. I didn't once say that we don't need to step outside the box on our thoughts about crop nutrition, but there are alot of misconceptions about how these things work. Let's start by making an analogy, think of when you take a high load multi-vitamin. What happens two or three hours later?...You piss neon yellow. That's because you put too much of certain nutrients in your body so it's purged them, hence the neon yellow pee. A plant is no different. So some things to consider are 1) is the nutrient your applying mobile in the plant? If no... 2) Is the time of application a high demmand point in the growth cycle? 3) What load and form of said nutrient can safely be absorbed into the plant, stored and later used. 4) at any given time what type of growth will the plant put that nutrient toward? I don't get payed extra for growing more straw.

So it pays to know what needs to go on when. Shot gunning a cocktail on at random times because you happen to already be in the field rarely pays unless you're trying to snap a crop out of a stress situation, such as drought, flooding, hail or herbicide injury. Also what is the extra cost incured by running over the field for an extra pass with a sprayer? A custom rig cost about $5/ac and I would argue that alot of guys with their own rigs are paying more at the end of the day by the time all costs are factored in. Alot salesman never factor that in when spouting off ROI numbers.

And by the way I checked on the folliar efficiency numbers again...N = 4:1, P= 20:1 and some of the micros are up to 100:1 compared to soil applied. When I get the complete list. I'll post it and I'm also trying to track down when crops need what and how much as well.

These are good products for diversifying risk and little extra's at the right time can pay big but even most of the guys that sell this stuff will tell you that you can't make up for poor fertility with folliar fert it has to be part of a program. My worry is that there are some great products out there that when used right can mean huge returns but this is the second time in less than ten years that there has been more focus put on these type of products and application methods and we screwed up royaly the first time and each time we have to start over on the concept it gets harder to sell meaning the right people aren't willing to try again.

Be creative, try new things, but make sure you understand why you're doing them and that you get a second source of info.

Agguy keep the ideas rolling there is alot on the fringe that can make big a big diffference and the more we can scrutanize before big $$$ are spent the better.

[ado089]

You two probably know each other. Don't you guys sell dynagrow furrow?

[AG_guy]

Just remember you don't need soil to grow a plant. And you should put down a starter fert plan. then take a tissue sample to see what you lacking then add it in with your herbicide. And i actually have the report/study on using radio isotopes to study foliar absorbtion by plants. Foliars don't replace fert it lets you cut back your banded N then lets you foliar apply up to 40 pounds of N at the time of head development. It doesn't make sense to keep doing pass after pass in the field.On heavy soil the less passes the better unless you have tramlines then drive away. I've been involved with topdressing 28-0-0 and with the Dynagro and with conventional farming. As well as talked to a few organic farmers.And what was taught to me the best line to take is right down the middle somewhere between organic and convetional. And that would be about half your fert in the spring then top off with foliars.
And a salesman takes marketing courses on how to get you to buy and to squeeze answers out of you to get a feel on how to get you to buy or what your cashflow is that's marketing. I don't want to be your friend or have you trust me cause you like me . My talk is backed by research and papers and articles in books and studies from around the world. i've taken no marketing course's ever. I've learned from what i think are some of the smartest guys in the industry and they don't work for a chem or fert dealer.

[furrowtickler]

No, we sell Mega-gro wich is a plant growth hormone, completly different than dyna grow. We are going to try the two together this year. We buy our dyna grow from Garry Betoria(Bio agronics) out of Unity(Sawfly's) area. I have no idea who ag guy is, but I would sure sit and have a beer and swap ideas with him long before some young Cargilized, or Viagra fert "expert" any day. I have learned from thinking/doing on my own and not the same old b/s about N/P/K/S from a robot that has never grown an acre of crop in their life. 12-51 is one of the most inefficient crop nutrients on the planet - Look at the studies done at the Scott research Station. Hence our switch to Alpine as well and my interest in "black lable".

[furrowtickler]

For more detailed info on Mega grow, pull up youtube and type in Megagrovideo.com. It is very widely used in the U.S. on all types of crops. We are retailing this for $3/ac, it comes in a 4lt jug that treats 80ac and mixes with all herdicides. Just for everyones info.
We have tried it on canola and wheat and plan to do more trials this year with a weigh wagon again. We averaged 10 -15% yeild increase. It is a rate of return that pays very well at a low risk.

[ado089]

What the hell? I haven't attemped to sell a thing, in fact I agree with 75% of what you guys are saying but I also know that there are some things that are not widely known or disclosed around some of these products. For example ortho vs poly phosphate...I agree that 11-52-0 is a terrible delivery method for phos but if your ortho isn't in the right carrier it turns into poly after about 9 days of being in the ground or if it has too much binding agent it can tie up micros. Is this a bad thing? No, but it does mean you should look at the cost and make sure you're not paying a premium for something that you're not necisarily getting, but if you ask you know. By the way around N.B. you can get black label at Pioneer I think, or any independant that carries UAP products, so that would be Cavalier Ag or Mid-Sask, maybe the Rack but they push alpine. I have not worked for cargil or viterra since I was crop scout almost ten years ago and I have no vested intrest if another lb of fert ever get's sold, infact selling more "unconvetional" nutrients is a benefit to my portfolio. But yes I have taken many marketing courses hell I've even instructed some, which is why I know to dig past a flashy promo line and get more info. I've also attended dozens of agronomy sessions, field days, seminars and worked with top producers and crop consultants across Saskatchewan and Alberta. I've even had some epic failures in the last few years between two and a half drought years (I don't know what to call last year, no moisture from april 14 to July 12, then lots), hail, hail and drought and shitty grain prices inbetween. Which is why I still have to work and probably why you have some projects on the side as well. So no I'm not just some dumb, "Cargilized" kid.

[ado089]

As for the DynaGrow on canola I've seen two things all be it with Omex's C3. It seems to make the biggest difference on RR canola when mixed with the roundup because it helps metabolize the chemical quicker. Secondly when applied with a fungicide at no later than 20% bloom you will see and increase in oil content, not that we get paid for that yet. They've also seen a huge increase in yield if mixed with some 28-0-0 at that time but those results were from Europe and they had a $40/ac price tag on that mix so that one would depend on canola prices, probably profitable at $10. Might not hurt to check out comparable products or try it compared to a straight boron nitrogen mix at the same staging. Right product, right time, right place like I've been saying all along.

[furrowtickler]

Easy ado, never insinuated you at all. Put your fur down - it's all good. I can tell by your posts you are a free thinker, not a n/p/k/s robot.
Anyway how much is c3, $9-10/ac, why double the price over dyna-gro.
I'll have to call Cavalier agro on the black lable. I know their not a fan of Alpine, but neither was the Rack. All depends if the sell it and can make a buck I guess. The Rack made me giggle, Mr. Independent free thinking world leader, Bashed Alpine and 28 users just a few years back now selling bolth. I like the guy just sometimes a little too much in your face. A great place to deal as long as your on the same page as him - kinda like Cavalier agro. But bolth these businesses are way ahead of any line company by far for service and outside the box thinking.
The c3 - 28 combo sounds good but getting pricey? We are carefull not to dump too much on b/c we have lost it before(hail - drought) and it does not hurt as much if you are below $5/ac. Top dressed last year then watched 52 days go by without rain - reality sucks sometimes, if it's your own money laid out there.
Anyway ado keep postin, these type of ideas and products is where real money is made above ones normal fert practices.

[AG_guy]

The only problem that i have with the big dealers is that you all have your quota to make and try to exceed it. Chem and fert reps try and get you to always sell more. One head guy from cargill told me to my face that they try and plan a farmers crops two years in advance so they can plan on sales. I just don't believe in that sorry. a good crop rotation with chem rotation but i take the year as it happens. I don't care how much puma i can sell two years down the road. But if a company takes your grain and has fert and chem it may sometimes feel like your getting a heck of a deal. But for years fert and chem was a companies bread and butter and i understand that but there are better ways. I guess i will always sit at the farmers table rather then the company table, the reason being is that the farmer pays my wage in the end. No matter who you are in agriculture the farmer pays your wage.