Agristability

[barbiek]

This is an excerpt from a news release from OFA President Bette Jean Crews:

"When we (Partners in the Ontario Agriculture Sustainability Coalition) talk to Minister Ritz, he says 80 per cent of farmers think the Federal AgriStability program is working for them. Yet, 80 per cent of Ontario farmers tell OFA the program is failing them and is in desperate need of major adjustments.

Minister Ritz, speaking at the recent annual meeting of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture says technology, science, research and innovation will save agriculture. In the long-term, he may be right, but right now, how do our farmers invest in innovation with record debt levels and lost equity.

The minister recently claimed that farmers are a resilient group, and will continue to plant and to birth calves and so on. That was the case but it is no longer true. Ontario farm businesses have lost equity and are in debt. There is no more resiliency left. The Minister has to get in touch with the new reality and listen to the solutions that will turn this dire situation around.

Ontario’s new minister of agriculture, food and rural affairs, the Honourable Carol Mitchell, understands this situation and supports the proposals we have brought forward. But the risk management programs operate on a 60-40 federal–provincial split so we need our federal government to step up to the plate with a real commitment to farming in this country.

When I recently asked point blank if he would support the proposals to reform AgriStability to make it predictable and bankable and to support the Ontario Business Risk Management Plan the Minister simply said: “No”. That is unacceptable. "


Okay - so what world is this guy living in? I don't know anyone who is happy with AgriStability.

The Conservatives promised a better program than CAIS but theirs isn't and of course they won't admit that.

I don't understand how any governments can create programs that are supposed to benefit a group of people (whether they are farmers, natives, the poor, etc.) without really listening to those they are supposed to benefit.

Farm groups have designed programs that will help the farmer but are still realistic but rather that use them, governments waste time and resources to create their own that don't work and then say they put all this money in and no one is accessing it.

I guess I'll just go back to beating my head against the wall.

[skhadenuf]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!!
Finally people are starting to tell the real story of this bullshit program, 80% what a joke, If you happenned to luck out on lentils or an unusual couple years of canola and have a margin good for you but what about everyone else. The bottom line is they lied about not getting rid of it, this is a bigger fiasco than the sponsorship thing by a long shot so much money going into buruecratic bullshit for nothing. The entire ag portfolio is in a mess, look at the maggot infested meat coming into Canada undetected according to a former cfia inspector himself it's not checked because no money for inspectors yet all those sitting on their ass getting paid shuffling useless numbers most of them fictitious numbers in the Cais program that has not helped any cattlemen or grain farmers the most in need. But that's good for those that don't want to get with it here, next time you bite a burger just think maybe it's from some country where the workers get paid so little can't afford paper and when they wipe it's only fingers, the same fingers packaging your prized imported cheap uninspected meat. But hey I guess if you don't inspect and therefore don't find a problem must be alright. I think all that imported shit should be served to the ag department every day every meal and make it so it's only non inspected stuff.

[Hopperbin]

What would anyone that is against agristability suggest to replace it?
Do we go to a system that gurantees a farmer profit? Do we reward for not being a good manager? Do we through the baby out with the bath water?

[Hopperbin]

Agristability does take into expenses minus some expenses in order to create a margin for anyone. If one does not have a caise cfip margin how the hell would you still be farming??

[skhadenuf]

Okey hopper, Let's turn this around a bit here. As you know in the last 3-4 years there have been some pockets that have gotten unusually high canola crops, many farmers you talk to will tell you they did nothing different than usual just that perfect weather conditions and they grew better than ever canola. for lentils price has been abnormally high would have been idiots not to grow it in areas that you can. So there are these that have unusually higher income and good for them not from any management but pure luck of weather but now are you saying those should be guaranteed a profit for the next 5 years because their margins are there for Cais because of unusual good weather, while at the same time there are areas such as ours and many others where in the last 5 years we had unusual weather the other way drought, august 20 frost, 40 bushel canola that got 26 inches of rain on it in august and september ended up swathing in 6 inches of water, then couldn't get on the field burnt most in the spring, next year fields so wet could not seed an acre, year after still 30% could not be seeded then 30 percent after rains was no crop there, then nest year came high inputs and this year harvesting canola with snow on the swath, so yes next to nothing for margins. It's easy for people who are not living in these disaster areas to say gee manage that better did you have a way to make it not freeze, stop raining, rain when you needed it? Let me know how that is done.
So in the end you said how can you manage farming with no margin well I'll tell you those that have been getting these disasters thrown at them and still survive those are the real managers not someone sitting there with phoney bumper canola crop year after year or unusual high lentil price year after year.
Are you saying that those in the disaster areas should just pack it in while those with some weather luck milk the program for the next 5 years guaranteed profit that is fair?, because with these crop prices turning that is what is going to happen. Although it won't either because right from a worker at Cais who told my neighbor that if there was a wide drought across the prairies or any other disaster big the Cais margins would only be paid out fractionally in the area of 10 to 15% because most of those billion numbers is going to salaries, research, so called food safety, not into payout of the program so people that think they have this safety net have only an illusion might look good on their margin statement but that's about all.
Look at the cattlemen, BSe hit, our government then and these ****ers now elected still don't have the balls to represent agriculture. First thing there should have been YOU NO BUY CATTLE FAIR PRICE< YOU NO GET ****ING OIL ANY PRICE FREEZE YOUR ASS OFF< SHUT DOWN YOUR ECONOMY OR BUY OUR BEEF that's what should have happenned.
The margin thing was supposed to tell what on average your farm can produce but it's become a tool for government to limit their liability to pay out in the case of disasters. Get rid of this program, clean house at crop insurance and get a good program in how about what they have in Quebec? We are not good enough citizens here? Or if there is not enough brain power get rid of Cais, put crop insurance coverage at 100% use the money from all those salaries and severence and retirement money from cais administration put that to premium of crop insurance, I bet the premium would go to a fraction, do not include yields where disasters occurred allow expansion of coverage because crop varieties have improved there fore we are using past yields based on poor performing varieties. that would be a start and a whole lot simpler.

[skip]

Grain prices and yields have been pretty good for us the past few years....it does not look so promising this year. I am not sure what Ritz is talking about when the grain market (not AgriStability) has been what is paying the bills for us. I doubt many pork producers are happy with AgriStability...
I hope the program works if we need it.

[bombay_43]

Hope in one hand. Crap in the other. See which hand you get most in!

[skhadenuf]

I hope that the guys that have those higher margins have a complete minus 10 frost 15 August crop froze so bad not a kernel to harvest or dried out so bad a fart would have more moisture. And the rest of us that have been hit hard by mother nature and have little margin have bumper crops and because those froze and dried out we have huge prices, that way everyone wins right? But let's say we have this bumper bonanza for 5 years in a row and those other guys have 5 years of mega frost and drought, and the reality of what that program is going to do for you hits actually even in the very first year I can tell you honestly I'd be the first one to agree and support you guys that the program is a flop and needs to be dumped, I wouldn't be sitting there admiring my margin statement making comments hey maybe we should be keeping this CAIS because there isn't anything else is there, because the answer is yes there is something else and it would be refreshing if farmers would stop just being so short sighted thinking only of themselves.

[frustrated1]

For what it's worth the CAISAgstability gurus tell me I have excellent margins. It ain't worth crap.. The only monies I've ever recieved they clawed back. Every freaking penny plus interest. While I sit on an "excellent margin", that doesn't help at the bank. I got to re-mortgage land that was paid for. I best not get started......

[skhadenuf]

Thanks frustrated for that input, and I should clarify I am not saying every farmer that has a so called good margin is thinking only of themselves, you obviously are experiencing some of what I have been saying, that program even for those that think there is something there there really isn't at least not a guarantee that some are thinking they have. And yes some have had payments but how many farmers, years after get it clawed back and heaven help if they ever change a figure 4 or 5 years past it changes everything every year later and turns into a bigger joke than it was.
To top this off they know every bushel, cow, hog, chicken, etc. do people think that info is going against in terms of the markets knowing what there is therefore knowing how much to shaft us?

[skhadenuf]

Frustrated - When you say the guru's express you have good margins, what do they mean? If you are a straight grain farm, you need to have a minimum of $125/per acre or higher to have a high margin. If you are a mixed farm you need to look at it in a different manner.

The problem with the program is many farmers (and accountants who know nothing about farming included) throw numbers at the forms to see if they stick. They don't understand the flows of the production cycle and perform tests on yields and revenue prior to sending the information in. To top it all off, most don't calculate the reference margin and payment calculation so that they can compare to what comes back from the administration. We don't handle income tax this way, why do we allow it for the program purposes?

I know this program because I have done lots of them, including my own. It is a risk management program, not a government handout. If you have no margins its because of a number of reasons, not the program itself. The design is not cover major disasters like BSE, multi year droughts etc. That is where your one off programs are supposed to kick in. Lobby for more support in those areas, not for changes in Agristability because the government won't go there. Lobby for the government to scrap adhering to the WTO so that you can get the biggest cheque you want from whatever program you need to make your farm profitable.

The fact of the matter is, some operators can manage through the disasters differently that others. So long as this happens, you are going to have people that view the program as a good one and others that view it as crap.

If your payments have been clawed back it could be that the information was not correct OR you have not calculated what it should have been. The administration makes many mistakes, there are flaws in the processing.

Just as there are flaws in the processing, there are hugh flaws in the preparers, data collection of the farmer and the historical success of the farm itself.

One thing I have learned is that relying on government support only gets you a small percentage of the loss. The bigger issue is finding a way to solve the profitability of the operation or get out while you may be ahead.

[frustrated1]

Mixed farm. Slow, steady expansion. According to two private consultants, two national, high paid accountants, and AFSC, I'm too stable and consistant. Tell that to my family. I'm apparently very good at handling my own risk. Apparently that's supposed to make me feel good. But while I maintain poverty level my "irratic" neighbours are playing with some very healthy "bonus" cheques. While the program breeds thieves and *****s I seem to insist on being honest in reporting. I've had all kinds of guys explain the "grey areas" to me but I still have to sleep at nite. Wether some of this grey is legal or not there comes a point where moral bankruptcy isn't worth the cost. Either way, the program is not working for me.

[frustrated1]

Frustrated, if you are in Sask, I would like to talk to you or forward you to someone I think can help

[frustrated1]

Alberta, land of milk and honey. While I appreciate the offer to help, I just can't afford any more help. I've literally spent thousands trying to find how I can't have got a dime out of this program in seven years. Have resorted to talkingwriting MLA's etc. Or maybe the program will breed one more thief or *****...........

[skhadenuf]

Every time someone tells the facts about how the CAID program is not working SASK99, you respond that those people are too stupid to manage, cannot fill out the forms, the program is not for this not for that,it's so good etc. etc.
Frustrated has told us what so many are saying, that he has been honest about all his reporting to the Cais program, he has paid for top notch accountants and advisors for years, he has a level margin, yet has recieved nothing or next to it for many years. Some advisors have told him about the "grey areas" you can try to get a payment. Some of his neighbors are recieving payouts.
Your response was that he must be either not filling the forms out properly or too stupid to mangage the program to get money, and then you offerred without knowing a single fact of his margin his farm or anything else about him that you think you can get him money out of the program.
Tell us all how you can make that claim without even knowing any of the facts. All of us stupid people, we know that if we misrepresent our income or expense then yes maybe we can get a payout too.
Is this a good program when because of weather disasters many are living at poverty levels yet pay for all kinds of accountants etc. with no results other than big bills, and someone else with a luck of good weather good crops either has an inside track to who or what, is lieing on their application or what ever else and stealing money out of the program.

Tell us idiots how you can get frustrated money out of the program without knowing any facts about his farm?