I want to get into sheep farming????

[ab-oldtimer]

Quick History: I moved from Toronto to the country and bought a 100 acre farm, it was established with aspapragus, but the market fell, .. it was then a motocross track for a few years, but the township closed that, ...so, I guess I'm asking if there's money in sheep, as I believe I have a good set up for them,

Any help in starting up would be appreciated, Thanx

[jensco]

It really depends on how you want to run your operation. The wool market is very depressed but the meat market holds opportunities. You will need to research your area to determine if it is feasible to ship into TO. The large ethnic population is usually looking for a supply. Are you planning to direct farm market? How many ewes are you planning to run? Talk to you Ag rep to find out how to get in touch with your local sheep association.

We are running a small operation (25 ewe) in Manitoba. We directly market our lamb within our region. It is not feasible for the size we are to ship to a large market.

Are we making any money? Well, since we have only been in the sheep business 2 years, I'd say we are breaking even right now.

Make sure you have sound breeding stock to start with! Take someone with experience with you so that you don't end up with culls. We did and have not regretted it.

They are more destructive to buildings than most people think. They are fun though! But I'm partial.

Good luck with your operation!

[cakadu]

Hi Rick. Welcome to the sheep room. As with all things, you have to decide what your goal is going to be. Are you going to want to make your entire income off of the sheep, or is it going to supplement an income that you already have?

Do you want to grow lambs that are destined for the feedlot, or do you want to direct market the lamb - which means that you will have to do all the work of the middlemen that you are cutting out of the equation i.e. taking the lambs to the processor, picking them up and delivering them to customers etc. There are advantages to direct marketing, particularly if you grow them the way your customers are willing to pay you for growing them in a certain way i.e. hormone free, drug free, unconfined etc. How big do you want to get?

Then comes the market research - how much are your potential customers willing to pay you, how many do they want, how easy will it be for you to supply year round, what cuts do they want - do they want whole lambs or only legs and the rack, which means you have a lot of the animal left to sell in other ways. When you add up all your costs of production, will you be able to make anything at all?

There is grass-based vs. high production costs i.e. barns, lambing pens, bottle feeding orphan lambs etc.

The breed you choose will depend on how it will fit into your management system. There are two types of sheep - wool sheep and hair sheep. Hair sheep require no shearing because there is no wool - they shed out their coats in the spring much like a Big Horn sheep, and generally they require no tail docking or crutching (removal of the wool from around the udder area).

The wool markets haven't been good for years, which is a consideration because they have to be shorn once a year.

Jensco is right, it isn't that it can't be done, you've just got to do your homework and treat it like a business in order to avoid the same fate as your asparagus farm.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask. Always glad to see someone else wanting to get into sheep!

[cakadu]

I'd like to use the sheep to subsidize my existing income, but if things go well, I wouldn't mind expanding.

I've got a barn 20 X 100, with about 15 acres for grazing, next to a forest and pond, so I'm not sure how many I can have. (more land can be used if nesessary)(corn fields now)

Thanks for the tip on the hair sheep, as I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, but am willing to put the work in.

I guess monies and profits can vary and are hard to quote, but if I could get a rough idea what a sheep costs, do you have to keep buying em, and what on an average would one sell for, and how long do you raise it, and how much it costs to feed and keep the sheep healthy during that period.

Can they get too old for meat?

Thanks for the quick response, and your willingness to help. Rick

[jensco]

Hi again Rick,

Purchase price of ewes is dependent on the breed, age, if they are full-blood or a cross, and if they are open or not (basically not exposed, or pregnant-verified or not). They can range anywhere from $80 for a replacement ewe lamb and go up from there. Some say that $150 for a ewe that is confirmed to be pregnant is a good place to start.
These are usually cross-bred ewes about 2 years of age.

Ewes carry for 5 months and then usually wean lambs around three months of age. If you buy them pregnant it saves having a ram on site at the start. Some breeds will lamb at any time of year. I am lambing out 14 ewes now (since just before Christmas). They lamb in the barn and then after about 3 days, they are returned to the flock. By the way, we have the hair variety.

Ram prices vary too. Some shepherds rent out rams for stud fees. One ram can service 25 ewes easily. Having more than one ram can cause fighting. Currently, I have more than one. They are all aggressive and we run a 'natural' operation. The sheep flock lives together and we do not separate the ram. If I see a ewe that is running down, I separate her and give her extra TLC and down time.

Since I direct market, I keep my flock small. However, on my 50 acre parcel, I could run a more commercial style of operation with 50 ewe. Since twins are the average, that would be 150 sheep grazing in the summer. Supplements are required. Sounds like you could have a few.

I raise my meat lambs until they are about 8 months. Again, we are a more 'natural' operation that direct markets to a niche market. Their dress weight averages around 60lbs. The Dorset or Suffolk are usually slaughtered at a much higher weight over a shorter growing period. Lamb is up to about 1 year of age (some say 14 months), after that they are called mutton.

What do you sell them for? Well, that depends on the area and the market. So, answering that is tough. Check the local farm papers to see how the lamb is doing at the yards. Then go to the supermarket and check what the retail prices are. I would see if there is a direct marketer in your area too. See what some of your potential customers would be willing to pay and then see if you think you can raise them for that. Some of it is research and then some of it is management.

I can't remember if I answered everything, but hopefully I've given you more to think about!

...Jensco

[jensco]

Yes, thank you, ...you have given me lots to think about.

So I guess the key is to have buyers for your lambs b4 they become mutton, I assume mutton is worth dramatically less, or possibly not sold at all?

So, in your opinion, what are the nightmares of being a shepherd... I've heard stories for raising cattle that didn't sound pleasant.

All in all, it sounds pretty good.

Thanks again, and anything else you can think of will be read and appreciated. Rick

[Smithy]

Cattle are way smarter but that is not always an advantage.

[jensco]

Smithy is right, sheep are not all that bright. Sometimes I think they have a death wish. They don't really fight to live, they are much quicker at giving up.

We find they are hard on our old buildings. I have 2 ewes right now that rejected their second born lambs for no apparent reason. Now we are bottle feeding those lambs. Started out every 2 hours, now they are about 1 week old and they can do the 8 hour night okay. However, many shepherds don't keep bottle lambs, they get rid of the extra work. Although not my favourite passtime, I don't mind once they get past the every two hours.

A neighbour of mine has a deli for the coyotes. They have no fear, swiped a lamb from the ewe not 50 feet from him. Of course he was too far from the truck and the rifle. Guard animals such as llamas or donkeys work well. We have a guard horse and a dog. Their are many breeds of dog that work well with sheep.

It takes some getting used to the coughing and "choking" as they change stomachs. My first week around ruminants I thought I was losing the whole flock. Some of the ewes are quite violent - shaking head etc.

The biggest problem we have is they escape in the summer. We bought an old property, so, we are gradually replacing fencing. The sheep are excellent at finding the holes.

They love to graze in the marginal areas and forest undergrowth is especially fun for them. Unfortunately, we don't have the perimeter fence secure around this part yet. They also love to venture next door and check out the feed our neighbour is giving his cattle. Our sheep are very 'friendly'!

They stampede for their grain ration. So, find a setup where you can pour in the ration without going into the corral yourself. They love to take out shepherds at the knees.

By the way, you are correct, there is not much call for mutton. The meat is somewhat tougher and has a stronger taste. Lamb is the meat sought after.

Where I am, the farm supply places do not stock sheep supplies in any great number. Many of them I have to order from the Woolgrowers Association. You may want to check that out where you are. I live in a big cattle area - who doesn't! Slowly, the lamb supplies are becoming more available, you have to push.

I have Dorper X (hair sheep). Eventhough we think we want to get our of the sheep business some days we are still here. We like having them on our farm.

I've had a lamb in my house over Easter 2 years ago. She went down with a virus. Doctored her for 5 days, and now she is getting ready to lamb for the second time. A success story!

With every horror story, there is a success story. A lot of it is how you approach and deal with it! Everything has its ups and downs. We all hope for more of the ups but for every down, you appreciate the ups more!

Regards, Jensco

[cakadu]

I don't know that I'd agree with the sheep are dumb statement, what else can get you out in -30 degree weather when they're standing in the barn, smiling and letting you know they'll come out later to eat. :-) I also think it has to do with the various breeds and how you treat them. By domesticating many of the animals we've taken a lot of the smarts out of them, no matter what species you're talking.

We've got Barbados Black Belly Hair Sheep and some of the rams have horns and they have, on occasion, been hard on buildings because they hit them with their horns. The females as a rule are polled or just have scurs (little horn buds) and are relatively easy on buildings.

As a rule the Barbados is not a friendly sheep and are very similar to cows in that we can move amongst them, but if we stop and look at them or try to grab them, then they will move out of the way. We do have ewes and a couple of rams that were bottle fed that do tend to get underfoot, but one of the interesting things that we have noticed over the years is that the rams tend to stay friendlier and the ewes - especially once they've lambed themselves - are suspicious of you. We've never been able to figure that one out.

We've also found that if they have enough food and water at home, they don't push the fence at all and we have fences that haven't been new since the 1960's. All it does take is for one to start leading them all astray - they are sheep after all! In the 9 years or so that we have been raising them, there have been about 3 times when they've gotten out and two of those times were operator error - the gate was left open - and the other time the neighbors brand new alfalfa bales were just too tempting. I would point out that we got rid of the "leader" and we haven't had problems ever since.

In Alberta, it's harder to sell mutton animals because many of the rendering plants won't take the offal from older animals, which creates a bit of a problem.

You're quite right, Rick, it is very important to know where you are going to sell your animals and do that homework BEFORE you ever get into production, because you do want to try and make something for your efforts.

There are many good livestock guardian dog breeds - Maremma, Great Pyrenees, Akbash, Anatolian Shepherd, Kuvasz, Kommondor and a couple of others that escape me at the moment.

We generally don't have many lambing problems and bonding to lambs is something that the Barbados is well known for. We have had the very rare occurance, as Jensco has stated, where the 2nd lamb is just not taken by mom and there is relatively little you can do to convince her it is actually her baby. ( This is something that isn't uncommon in cattle either, where the 2nd calf is sometimes not accepted by mom. ) I have tried to get her to accept the baby, but it ends up being far easier to just bottle feed or find someone who wants to take and look after an orphan lamb. You have to remember that the ewe can only count to 1 and if she has 1, then she's all set.

Sheep are no different than anything else you want to raise, you have to get educated - this is a good place to start - and try to get as much homework done as you can before you get in. We woudn't trade our sheep for anything and we've got around 200 of them or so. We've had a veritable population explosion since the first of the year - with over 20 lambs born so far and we weren't planning for January lambs this year. Oh well, those escaped boys did have something to say about that.

Keep asking your questions! We'll be happy to answer.

[cakadu]

Greetings to all..........

Busy checking our little flock (18 ewes) in Manitoba today in a blizzard. Lots of shelter though so its rather comfy where our girls are. We started out about a year ago with 5 bred ewes, and no experience with sheep. They can't be that different from cattle and pigs can they? (SMILING) Anyway with the generous help by several veteren shepherds (too date we have always been greeted with enthusism when we ask for advice). we managed to produce 125% live and weaned them all. Our setup for sheep is rudimentary, but improving as we go. Our cash flow is greatly negative (bought more ewes and kept all our ewe lambs, plus a ram). BUT its been fun. Our only advice to anyone thinking about starting a small flock is make sure you enjoy working with the "animals" first, and then make sure you don't mind the fact that you won't make a lot of money doing for the first few years. Don't be afraid to ask questions, and then don't be afraid to share your experiences, Good Bad or otherwise.

I noticed that there were other people in this thread from Manitoba. The Westman Sheep Association is having a "field day/seminar " on Feb 1s in Hargrave, MB The ad is in the Western Producer and The Co-operator and the contact number is (204) 845-2468

[cakadu]

rick, than answer to your question is yes, you can make money in sheep. I fact I think sheep are the best kept secret there is. If you are working as a couple then it is even better. I have had really good luck with sheep. just be aware that if you want to suceed your work load will be heavey. Ohter advice you have been given is all good too but one thing I have learned is that you have to be with your sheep. Especially during lambing. When lambing time starts around here I don't even make it to town for 6 weeks. it also took me 5 years before I started to make money but that comes with growth. Also when you are starting out make sure you choose the bred that will work for you. There is a wide variety of breeds that will accomplish a variation of goals. This alonmg with planning your markets are crutial steps. Anyway good luck and use this website to get any questions answered. Sheperds are always willing to help out when they can.

[cakadu]

Can't think of any other questions right now, but I appreciate everyones help.

Trying to get information on asparagus from fellow farmers and the Ontario aspapragus board was impossible, thus leading to the demise of my 32 yr old crop, as I got into that blindly as well. Asparagus needs to be fertilized years in advance for future crops, not knowing this, with crops yeilding high, I avoided expensive fertilizing, and eventually the soil wasn't up to par, and again, it would take years to recoperate, as the roots are very deep. The price dropped drastically too, so it wasn't nessarily a bad thing, other producers that hung on lost more.

I'm really confused as I have changed my mind about sheep inbetween your posts a few times.

I originally wanted to try sheep because I thought the wool was valuable, and I could farm an animal without it's death involved, as I am an animal lover,

However I understand that these lambs will have a good life, yet short, and thats life.

I am looking forward to reading more posts, and make a decision, there arn't many sheep farmers(shepards, lol) around here to get hands on information, and there low numbers makes me think too,
thanks again.

[jensco]

I'm a softy too Rick! Lamb deaths are hard and I had just lost two this past week. I have to agree with everyone, and although we are small and still "rookies" at it, we love them. We are in the midst of lambing - normally good in January since disease is greatly reduced and we like to be near the sheep during lambing. Much more difficult when they are on pasture. Anyway, had three ram lambs born this morning and all seem to be doing well. Must go look in on the new ones.

Have a good one!

PS. Manitobans, there is also a genetics/breeding workshop coming up in both Dauphin and Winnipeg in Feb. Check at you local Ag Office for details.

[cakadu]

Rick, loosing anything is never easy, but if you've got livestock, well...you've got dead stock too. After almost 10 years, that's still hard for me to get a grip on and it's also hard for me to see the wethers (castrated males) go in for meat, but that is what they are raised for. They are treated very well while here and that is what helps in the long run.

Another good thing is to focus more of the attention on your females because they will often be your replacements and will be around for a little longer than the boys.

Many a livestock producer asks themselves from time to time why they still do it, despite setbacks, high prices and loss. Sheep are one of these things that you either really like or you don't really like it - there doesn't seem to be much in-between.

What makes it all worthwhile, however, is when you go out walking at the end of the day - usually to clear your head - and you see all those baby lambs frolicking and playing and generally enjoying life and that's when it all feels really good.

Where in Ontario are you - I thought that there were some fairly strong sheep groups and OMAF should have some reasonably decent information available. If you check out www.agric.gov.ab.ca (which is the Alberta agriculture website, you should be able to find some pretty good information on sheep farming).

Like anything, there is risk involved, it's somewhat dependent on how much risk you're willing to take.

Cheers!

[cakadu]

Hello everyone, I thought of some questions,

1.What would be the average price to get for ready lamb, roughly?

2.How many lambs would 10 females produce a year roughly?

3. How long do females have lambs, and what do you do with them when there older?

4.Whats an average amount of sheep to have for a small business?

5.And with that amount, what expences can I expect, they must need more than grass and shelter, ...other foods? innoculations?... anything?

6. And finally, when is a good time of the year to start?

Thanks again for the help, hope your still around come sheep time.