Third try Solar battery primer (appllcation and "necessity" in an electrical grid)

[oneoff]

See below please

[oneoff]

[QUOTE=oneoff;333191]There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now if you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt of solar power before the utility electrical meter; and on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can afford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).



This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and any individual desiring to be be 100% self sufficient; even at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurence or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way for a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while and appropriate; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contributing to their delusions.

Batteries are also notorious for toxicity, hazards, pollution and so far short lives. There are other totally different possibilities and alternatives and those counting on batteries really driving solar energy should put their own efforts into coming up with more suitable alternatives.

Also suggest that you be prepared for the Sask Energy natural gas model where you pay separately for a transportation charge. There is probably also a good reason why the "transportation charge " was recently raised and the gas consumption lowered somewhat. Now its easier to raise the gas charge without complaint and hold onto the delivery charge raise. All that is likely to happen soon. (you know Carbon taxes and oil price increases etc)






Any response that addresses these comments would be appreciated; especially if any part of a reply made any sense whatsoever.

Sorry about multiple posts in other thread, but somehow this became the third try in creating a new thread.

[tweety]

What do you want comment on?

[GDR]

Not real sure what you are looking for here sounds more just like a rant. Got quite a bit of experience with solar in the family here, still pricey and I don't think life expectancy of projects will be as good as most would like to suggest. Environment is harsh to components.

On a battery issue I think there will be options. There was a news story I saw a month ago about a company that developed huge under water balloons and store energy by compressing air in them then generating power in a turbine by releasing that air when needed. Sounds like a great idea to me, no doubt will need perfected. If I remember right it was a Canadian company.

I think the general idea of a battery needs to change to more of an energy storage than electrical. Agreed current battery options are horrible for the environment, costly and too limited in amount of storage. Think how simple a wind up toy stores energy till it is released.

[tweety]

Well there is graphene batteries, oxygen as oxidizer lithium, aluminum graphite charge super fast, aluminum air batteries are being thrown huge money at by car companies, Ryden dual carbon out of Japan, sand battery that uses silicon rather then graphite for its anode - 3 times conventional LiIon power, sodium ion batteries, magnesium batteries, and gold nanowire batteries that never ever wear out.

As long as the carbon tax goes into research like this and not for social programs or subsidizing oil companies, perhaps there is hope yet.

[chuckChuck]

Tesla unveils residential ‘solar roof’ with updated battery storage system

by Jordan Golson@jlgolson Oct 28, 2016, 8:49pm EDT

Tesla will build and sell its own line of solar panels to combine with its battery storage system, the company announced at a press event at Universal Studios in LA, today. The system will allow residential homeowners to replace their entire roof with solar panels connected to an updated Powerwall 2 battery pack, making it much simpler for homes to be entirely powered by solar power.

The roof is made of a textured glass tile with integrated solar cells. The roofs look "as good or better" than conventional roofs, according to Musk. They look like normal roofing tiles from the ground, but are completely transparent to the sun. The tiles are hydrographically printed, which, Musk says, makes each one a "special snowflake tile," and no two roofs will be the same. "You can take any two roofs that look like that and they will be different — because they are different," said Musk.

""Check out this sweet roof." - Elon Musk"

There are a number of different versions of solar panels: Textured Glass Tile, Slate Glass Tile, Tuscan Glass Tile, and Smooth Glass Tile. Tesla says its glass tiles are much more durable than conventional roof tile — something that’s important in areas with risk of hail.

The products are a "joint collaboration" between SolarCity and Tesla, according to SolarCity CEO Lyndon Rive. Tesla is attempting to acquire SolarCity for $2.6 billion and shareholders of both companies will vote on the proposed acquisition in the middle of November.

The Powerwall 2 can store 14 kWh of energy, with a 5 kW continuous power draw, and 7 kW peak. The battery is warranted for unlimited power cycles for up to 10 years. It can be floor or wall mounted, inside or outside. It can be used for load shifting or back-up power.

Musk says there are three parts to the solar energy solution: generation (solar panels), storage (batteries), and transportation (electric cars). Musk’s plan is to sell all three of those products through Tesla.

Those wishing to go entirely solar, with minimal draw off the electrical grid, would need to buy solar panels from a separate company (like SolarCity) as well as Powerwall batteries from Tesla. Now, customers will be able to buy both products from Tesla directly.

Musk says there are four to five million new roofs built each year in the US, and the solar roof product will be price competitive with more traditional roofs with solar added to it. However, existing roofs which do not need to be replaced will be better candidates for more traditional roof-mounted solar solutions.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who announced the Powerwall 2 in the California sunshine, had previously teased the product in a series of tweets as well as the Tesla Motors "Master Plan, Part Deux," earlier this summer.

Availability and pricing of the solar roof — not to mention how the thing is actually installed and works — was not announced. The Powerwall is $5,500.
ime?

[chuckChuck]

We are in the early stages of battery development. Even at the consumer level there has been a huge adoption of battery powered tools. How many farms would give up their 1/2 inch impact wrench? They work really well and are not very expensive.

[oneoff]

And LED lights and Makita or Ryobi or Milwaukee impact wrenches are where 50 or $100 dollar or $100,000 batteries belong.

People may think that 14 KW is a lot of energy, but for space heating and manufacturing and cultivating a quarter section you bareley get to the other end. Powered by that impact wrench you'd be pretty foolish.

So how many solar roofs have anyone already purchased in Sask. How many even have one on order? Did you think about your method of cleaning the last accumulations of the last two snowfalls.

I forsee a recurring problem; because neighbors are thinking about somehow removing snow from roofs; and I just don't expect that the Tesla saleman has yet been assked if his product is aluminum shovel compatible; and doyou have to be careful on that roof.

Oh and would it have even worked the last two weeks with that foot of snow; do you need to replace the rafters to get the best sunlight angle and what about cost of rotating some houses so that new roof faces
Advice is when anyone can show that these things work properly in actual conditions (and for most readers...in Western Canada....and especially in conditions where you need them the most.

I'l put up with poor performance when it doesn't much matter and you have shirt sleeve conditions....but your equipment really shines when it purrs under worst adverse conditions.

You'll go broke and become very disappointed with a shit load of expensive junk in your toybox and especially equipment necessary to make a living.

Still say there are too many people on earth and a growing number chasing solutions that are only in minds of dreamers and researchers. And thats not a slam on dreamers or researchers; its the problem of too many people.

[oneoff]

"We are in the early stages of battery development."

No, for greater clarification batteries have been around since at least 1748 in the days of Benjamin Franklin. Those would be considered the early days of battery development..

Tweety ...I write and respond to exercise the mind...and read to pick up other peoples ideas to sometimes improve and further test electrical generation; use waste heat; improve communication system and a couple of times even produce something unique and worthwhile.

[checking]

Announced in the California sunshine - that's funny, cc.

Pretty tough sell under a snow load unless it comes with a repackaged chimney sweep gang.

[binthere]

chuck. lets get it out in the open. do you operate solar? do you operate wind power? let us know how its working for you. if you are not using solar or wind generated power why not?

[tweety]

Again oneoff, not sure what you want discussed. You started the thread, can you bit a lot more specific about what it is you want discussed?

Otherwise its the typical agriville discussion.

[chuckChuck]

I am looking seriously at installing a grid tied ground mount solar system that will be much cheaper in the long term than buying all our electricity from sask power. Neighbor already has one and I am waiting to see how it performs.

[chuckChuck]

Hey guys go check out the Nikola hydrogen electric semi truck website: https://nikolamotor.com/one#NikolaMotor

I started another thread. Looks pretty good i'd say.

So are you going to tell everyone why it won't work? I am sure there will be problems it even might fail.

But are you pretty confident you know more than the engineers at Nikola?

You know the way a lot of you guys think you would still be using steam tractors or even oxen.

There comes a point in many peoples lives where they get too old and conservative in their outlook to make good decisions for the future. The world moves on but some people don't!

[sawfly1]

you would think there has to be some way of storing energy.
when in excess . like wind and harvesting it when it is calm.

that is the only way green energy will be feasible

maybe heat up a bunch of rocks in the ground, and recover the heat later.
pump the water to the top of the dam
or lift some giant weight and let gravity pull it back down and use the force.
or compressed air like was said.

or some closed loop chemical reaction(battery)
there has got to be something.

for now burn natural gas or nuclear
until we come up with effective energy storage.
it can't be that far away