Government Systems

[cowman]

It seems to me that over the last several years the various governments provide us less and less while taking more and more. At one time the government did a lot of research on agriculture. We had the Crow. We had good extension services. In my local town they had a district agriculturist office. No More! Now what I would like to know is where have all the savings gone? How come the government could pay a good part of the freight on grain but now there is nothing for farm programs? What happens to all the fuel taxes we pay? Are your roads improving?

[Steve]

I have been reading a lot of the threads today and it seems the farmers are having the same problem for the last 50 to 60 years.

Its all gloom and doom and negative projection for the future, and that’s one reason farmers are in this shape today. Lets get our heads out of the sand and forget the past and start looking to a positive future and think what you can do to improve farming, not just blaming the Government for all our problems.

Most of the grain and beef prices are good this year and the crops yields are at least average in areas with some moisture.

The farmers should try and get more united and start a crop insurance program that will pay for the input cost in areas hit by weather disasters. That also means hay and pastures for livestock producers.

Governments try to start crop insurance programs and fail because the farmers start abusing it by farming the insurance. How do you expect the Government to come up with an insurance plan to satisfy all farmers if there is no co-operation between any two producers?

Farmers accuse the Government for not putting in farmer suggestions before they start a program. Insurance is to cover input cost and is not to make a profit as most farmers see it.

Farmers should take a good look across the fence and will find out the grass isn’t really greener on the other side but its only a optical elusion. Some of these high paying jobs are only temporary and the employees are paying 30% or more in income tax so their take home pay is not as rosy as the farmer thinks. Yes they have unemployment insurance and they pay into while working, because most jobs nowadays are also governed by supply, demand and the economy. This insurance money just barely covers their food, utilities and maybe the rent when they get laid off work. This only lasts for a short time and if they are not called back to work, they have to look for another job and this is when you will see the boys coming home to farm. [ with a different outlook on farming. ]

I think that farmers with some unity could have crop insurance to help them in these weather disaster areas. The Nisa program for farmers is like unemployment insurance for employees.

The unemployment premiums are paid by employee and employer which are mandatory and that’s the reason it works.

The only reason crop insurance doesn’t work for farmers, because they don’t like the mandatory part, and I believe farmers will have to put their pride and commonsense in the right order before things will change. I don’t really see that happing in the near future, so we are in for more gloom and doom until more farmers really go broke, not just talk that they will if the Government doesn’t help.

FARMERS LETS GET POSITIVE AND START TO CO-OPERATE WITH EACH OTHER AND WE CAN MAKE GOOD CHANGES TO CROP INSURANCE AND GRAIN PRICES.

The reason I am writing this article is because I was at the local coffee shop the other day and listened to the farmer gloom and doom talk, and what really set me on fire was that they all got into their new pickup trucks [ some 2002 diesel pickups loaded with every option money could buy.] and drove away. We all need reliable transportation but lets start with some reasonable management plan.

This is the way I see farmers.

[ianben]

I agree Steve.

We farmers must be to blame.

There has been just about every government scheme imaginable tried somewhere in the world.None of them work long term.
If you read forums like this round the world the story is the same. It seems just the same in the US with their expensive farm plans.

Farmers or perhaps everybody always needs to blame someone.

As you rightly point out we all have our own pet villan who is responsible for all our ills. CWB; subsidies; speculators if they could be changed.

Would it make any difference if we don't change ourselves?

Stop blaming and start co-operating.

Farmers are the problem!!!!

Farmers are the only ones who could change and solve it.

Other farmers should be our closest ally not the enemy. Both our closest neighbour and our foriegn cousins.

In this global world this must be the way to survive.

Regards Ian

[cowman]

I wasn't talking doom and gloom! What I was saying is how come there is no money when in the past there always was lots? Why is it they can give the doctors and nurses and teachers a 20% raise(not to mention a pretty nice little personal package for themselves!) but nothing more for agriculture? I don't have all the answers...I just wonder what they are doing with all the money?
As for the farmers driving new pickups...this probably has more to do with taxes than anything else. Probably the majority of them are lease jobs. And are you so against a "lowly" farmer having something new?

[Steve]

Cowman; I am not against the farmer driving a new pickup truck if he can afford it. Now if he is buying or leasing this truck just to have a bigger tax deduction and not pay income tax in the good years, he better not cry for a handout in the poor years. When you buy or lease a vehicle the payments are on a 3 to 5 year plan and have to be kept up for that time.

So why do farmers put themselves into debt just so they don’t pay income tax?

The employee doesn’t have this choice and has to pay on all taxable income every year regardless if that person can afford it or not. These people also buy or lease vehicles they can’t really afford and get themselves in debt. I am still from the old school “don’t buy it if you can’t afford to pay for it” and don’t try to keep up with the Jones.

The tax dollar is sliced up in many ways and people get it back in different forms and services and don’t stop to realize how much these things cost. Yes some of the Income tax that doctors, lawyers, schoolteachers, all employees, corporations and farmers contribute help to pay farm and other subsidies.

Where are all the tax dollars going and we don’t have the same Government money for farmers as we used to?

1.The Government is trying to balance the books and pay down our debt.
2.All programs for health and education cost more at the present because people demand better and more readily available services. The human population is ageing and some worked hard but didn’t put much into the pot, but sure want good health services.
3.The trade is more global and all Governments worldwide are trying to cut back on farm subsidies, and some of the things you talk about that farmers had and are now discontinued to satisfy world trade agreements. If we don’t co-operate the countries will go back to tariffs on farm products, and this will surely kill free trade. Global trade is here to stay and we better start to learn how to manage it.
4.The escalating cost of equipment and labor, also today’s standard is much higher to build county roads because farmers have larger trucks to transport their goods to market.
5.Farmers and all business companies get most of their GST back.
6.Some subsidies are still paid to farmers.
7.Some subsidies are paid to industries to keep a lot of people working, and this helps companies to compete in the world markets. [ same as farmers ] Also these people will be paying income tax instead of being on Government subsistence. [ Farmers you have to see that side too ]
8.The Government still contributes a lot of money to all kinds of research programs including agriculture.
9.The local Government closed down offices in smaller towns to cut cost and also balance the books. We have the computer and internet at our finger tips to replace the local DA.
10.September 11th and the down turn in the world economy helped clean out the piggy bank.

This is part of our tax dollar and the list goes on.

[countryguy]

To add to Steve's list:


11)Aboriginal spending.Enough is enough already!!One half of the country cannot
continue to support the other half while
trying to keep the country going.This has got to stop!!!

[ianben]

I bet it is the same with you as it is over here.
Goverment spending is going on health and education cause thats where they think the votes are!!!
Public expectations for both are much higher. heart transplants computers for schools all have to be paid for!

Cheap food is seems assured so why pay insurance which is all government aid is.

On buying pick-ups to save tax etc.
If that is a way to work your system I think you have to go for it.
Econamies are all about keeping think turning.

More spending; higher prices;just a little inflation; and we should all prosper.

Slightly higher comodity prices would be good for everyone not just farmers.

How much of Argentina's problems are due to low prices?

Regards Ian

[cowman]

Steve: I agree with most of what you say.The health care and education systems are out of control with no end in sight, but a whole lot of the problem is obscene wage hikes and not just better equipment. In general there has been a great sucking away of money from things like infrastructure towards social programs. I suspect in the end these things will break the country.
The tax structure for agriculture is one of the only things that has kept agriculture going. The western Canadian feeding industry is built on it.
Also you should realize the western farmer is aging and because of this many farmers have accumulated a lot of assets and may very well be able to pay for a new pickup! That doesn't mean they should be satisfied with a subpar return on their agricultural investment. Take a look around...lots of young farmers in your vicinity? If something isn't done soon to make farming more attractive there will be no more farmers! Us old men can carry on for a few more years but not forever!
Global trade could be a good thing but only if it is fair trade! I don't see the Americans or Europeans cutting too many subsidies so how come our government is so gung-ho to step up to the plate? Well we all know the answer to that....banana republics don't support the peasants!

[cowman]

To Steve: Please read the Agri-ville headline news Dec.31. Read "Nationwide Drought" and "Alberta considers water Diversion" The urbanites don't have these problems! Read very carefully the part about"Ag. experts warn that Albertas 7.3 BILLION ag industry will border on collapse IF they don't get a lot of rain!!! Do you understand yet that WE are a special industry???

[Steve]

Cowman: Thanks for suggesting to read that article, but I do understand the farming industry, because I farmed for a good many years. I am in the process of retiring but I know that Revenue Canada will still class me as a farmer for 2002.

Cowman I am sure that both of us have seen poor crops and very dry conditions and expert predictions before. These experts probably spent hours on the computer doing research and arrive at this conclusion but also need more studies. These people get paid for doing this. I thing they put more stress on some farmers that already have a tendency to worry about the future, but I am a firm believer that good things do happen.

I remember some years it was so dry in the spring that I thought the seed wouldn’t germinate, but nature has a way to turning things around, and I ended with a bumper crop.

Now you or I can go for a long drive in the country and can also predict that if it doesn’t rain it will be dry, and if you say it will rain you also have a 50% chance of being right.

Weather experts seem to have problems to predict one day in advance so I wouldn’t get all tied up in knots for next year, besides there is more than average snow fall in the mountains now and march is our snow month.

Maybe take a look at Buffalo NY, or we could have a repeat of 1974 when we had about four feet of snow in our area and farmer ditched to drain low areas. For some reason farmers have a tendency to destroy good things and later want them back. We should all try to remember water makes rain and snow.

People will also have to look back and realize that southern Alberta was and still is dry land country and we don’t need some expert to tell us so in his new findings.

I like Kerry Brewin’s comments in that article.

Everybody should read the article you suggested and also realize that is the reason we have to work together and setup an insurance plan to protect us form these possible weather disasters, because we surely can’t stand alone.

Regards Steve.

[pandiana]

Steve, if "Most of the grain and beef prices are good this year and the crops yields are at least average in areas with some moisture" then why is that many of us could sell all of their produce at these prices and would still not have covered input costs, let alone yardage and overhead? Cash price for produce is irrelavant, I think. It is what one has left over that determines the quality of life that people enjoy.

As to the 'gloom and doom' you speak of, it seems to me that many farmers today are forced into taking risks far beyond their comfort level; not out of greed or a sense of adventure but merely to have a chance at one more year of farming. The pervailing emotion I think is one of anxiety not doom. If farmers were really pessimistic, why would they risk everything for another year of anxiety and hard work in order the hold on to an industry which seems to have little value in the eyes of most Canadians. It is after all 'Next Years Country'. Happy New Year

[Steve]

Happy New Year to All !

Pandiana: I try to see the good side of life.

A positive attitude goes a long ways to eliminate stress and anxiety and it helped me in farming and surveying business. Even when things looked bad, but with good management and some luck I was very successful.

If farmers want a change and join the labor force and enjoy all the luxuries of life, land is easy to sell. I tried to buy more land in the past but none was available in my area, but I sold last year by just putting a for sale sign on the gate post.

Farmers are pessimistic in words only and not in action and that is the way we make the general public see us.

In this Free World we all choose our own bed to sleep in, therefore make things happen on your own.

Farming is a business therefore the land base, equipment, number of people to support and good management have to be in good order, before one can have all the luxuries of life. This stands true in all businesses and not only in farming. Also forget what we used too and look what we can in today’s world. Never think that you can’t be replaced because some one else may just take over and even do a better job.

So chins up farmers, there is still hope for the farming industry and I secretly believe farming is a good way of life even with the highs and lows.

Lets start working together and save when we can to get us through the poor years, and prove to the rest of the people we are good managers and will keep the food chain going.

Regards Steve.

[cowman]

Ian mentioned Argentina and low prices...I was at a "Pursueing Profits" workshop about four years ago and one of the speakers had just returned from Argentina. Argentina has almost no programs,subsidies, or special tax deals for their Ag. sector. He said they drove through countless miles and miles of land that had just been left to go to weeds. It cost more to grow a crop than what they could get from it, thus with no support the farmers just stopped! Could this happen here? Is this part of the reason Argentina is such a wreck?
As an aside...At that time Argentina was getting close to being declared FMD free. He said at the border with Brazil(which is full of foot and mouth) they observed 4 or 5 cattle trucks crossing without the border guards even stopping them. He suggested Argentinas FMD free status was going to be a joke...and guess what happened...Surprize! Argentina has foot and mouth again! And you can just bet the good old Canadian govt. was just chomping at the bit to let that dirty meat in, so Toronto could have some cheap deli cuts!
Maybe it's time we got the govt. out of our businesses whether it be crop insurance or meat inspection or marketing grain and we decide what comes in and what doesn't?

[Steve]

Cowman I think we have a more responsible and accountable Government in Canada and that is the extent of my comment

[nakodo]

Argentina is an interesting one, the fact they hooked their currency to the USD and locked it there has made their products 40 % more expensive than the market would dictate.

The new president (the 5th in a few weeks) has decided to uncouple their $ and reduce its value by 40 %. This means their purchasing power (if you had a job) just dropped 40 % BUT if you are a farmer your price for products in your own currency is now 'reasonable'. This does not mean it jumps up in value, it means you can actually sell the crop if you grew one. Growing it with no buyers is less attractive than growing it with some buyers, even if it sells for a lower price in terms of USD it now is selling for more in your own currency. This means Argentinians will once again start to buy local produce and to process local products into value added products at home as well.

Again less government meddling may be the savior of the Argentinian farmer???