The Alberta Advantage?

[bombay_43]

The unfortunate reality of this whole topic is, the only farmers really making money in farming, are the well established ones. Where are our beginning farmers? Who will take over the family farms that still exist? Our average age of the Canadian Farmer is somewhere around 60! We need to take a closer look at Quebec, who has an average age of 35 for their farmers, thanks to a program called ASURE. It guarantees them their "COST OF PRODUCTION". It is a voluntary program, but over 90% of the provinces farmers are in it, and it has been in existence for some 23 years! Why are our grain prices still the same as 25 years ago? Our expenses have certainly risen. Our Canadian Consumer, does not wish to pay higher prices for food, and we can not maintain this low cost food policy in Canada, unless we can keep our input cost down as well. The alternative? Government Subsidies.

[cowman]

bombay 43: You are exactly right when you ask where are the next generation of farmers going to come from? That is a good question!!! I look around my area and I see hardly anyone under 40...and damned few of those!! Just about all the established farmers are not encouraging their children to go farming.
Quite frankly why would a young person want to farm? Why go into an industry that has no future?

[jensco]

I think agriculture has a future in this country - but it is far different than what you guys have seen.

We fit the average age 35 category but with a large difference. One of us works off the farm as well. We don't farm a large section. We could never afford to farm like what you guys are doing for all the reasons you mentioned. The costs to get going are too high. The low commodity prices don't even come close to the costs, so, we have to stay small.

When the majority of farmers "retire" and there is no one or too few to take their place, Canadians may end up having to pay more for their food. However, how bad will it get before this happens?

Always interesting to read and comment!

[bombay_43]

So you enjoy the farm life and the tax benefits that this type of operation affords to you when you work out. Tell me, do you not believe that you work very hard on your farm, or invest probably most of the income that you make off the farm, into the farm, just to make it keep revolving?

Why should a farmer not have the same living standard as anyone else in this country? Because we are ONLY farmers?

Our family is starting to leave the nest, and let me tell you, our farm can not compete with the wages that our kids can make else where. My kids learned how to work growing up on the farm, and many places of employment prefer farm raised workers. So far only one of my four boys has expressed an interest in farming. He is wise enough to understand that it will be many years before he can quit his job and actually live off of farming. If ever. I find that sad.

Next time you are in a grocery store, take a hard look at what you are putting into your cart. Then add up only the actual agriculture products. Not the soaps, chips, fast foods, chocolate bars, you get the picture. Meat, vegetables, fruit, grain products, and dairy. It really does not add up to much, and it is time that the consumer be made aware of that fact! Until then, the family farm as we know it, will continue to struggle, and die.

[cakadu]

Lately I've been wondering about what we are truly competitive at in this province. Do we have any idea?

What about growing higher value cash crops such as peas, lentils, caroway etc.? I am wondering about micro-climates within Alberta and being able to grow some of these crops here. Does anyone have any ideas as to what prevents us from growing these crops?

[cowman]

Linda, the fact of the matter is in a good part of Alberta we have a good market for barley,feed wheat, and canola. Our freight costs are less than half of parts of Sask. When it costs $1.06/bu to ship barley to the port it doesn't make any sense to grow it. Which is why Sask. grows the higher priced crops. In Alberta we have an instant market for our feed wheat and barley...probably the highest prices in North America. We don't need to grow risky crops.
The whole idea of doing things differently is wonderful but you must understand the majority of farmers are older and are mainly interested in hanging in there for a few more years before they quit. Why would anyone growing grain, for example, want to go into something that would take a lot more time and effort? It is so much easier to work hard for 3 weeks in the spring and 3 in the fall. Is it any wonder they don't want to give up this life? I know all grain farmers aren't like this but for a lot, who use custom sprayers and trucking, this is basically the case. And why not? It is a great life if you can afford it!
And a lot of these older farmers have a lot of assets and are really just "recreation farming" even though they might make quite a bit of money.

[jensco]

I think I need to clarify some things. We chose to move into agriculture and changed provinces to do it! Unfortunately, we had to aquire land etc based on the very limited wealth at the time. We are putting in the long hours both on and off the farm and investing everything we can back into it and raising our family. We have no family support - we left them when we moved. Sound familiar?

We didn't choose this is for a tax break. Not many "city folk" that I know would choose the work load involved! We would love a larger operation and be able to commit to it full-time but cannot afford it. We have to pick at it. There are many families out there like us and we watch the many young people heading off to big paying jobs. It is not just the dollars but the perceived security, ammenities, excitement it offers.

The young that are staying will make the changes and change the direction of agriculture. As for the "old-timers", it doesn't make sense for them to change their operations. It is comparable to someone in a "white collar" position at around the same age. They don't want to change their jobs let alone occupations. Many are not hireable since "too close to retirement". I think a big question here is, how do we encourage young people to choose agriculture for their occupation/lifestyle?

[bombay_43]

Jensco, I understand that you love the farm life. So do we. Bottom line here is unless you did, you would not be doing what you are. You sound like an optimist to me, but try for a moment to be a realist. No young people will be encouraged to go farming, until a comparible living standard, can be achieved.

Farming involves not only a lot of odd ball hours, knowleadge beyond any other profession, and a profound love of gambling, as the dollar investment needed before your farm can produce one dollar of profit, is tremendous!

Most farmers don't know what RRSPs are, because all their money is reinvested into upgrading and maintaining, equipment, land, and livestock. The old saying that a farmer lives poor but dies rich, still holds true. Unfortunately I and many others like me would like to have a little income to live with while we are here. It won't do me any good when I'm dead! "Go ahead and laugh at my old truck and delapetated house! We'll see who laughs last when I die and everyone finds out how rich I am!"

Until the farmer is compensated fairly for his investment, farming does not have a future in our country! If we all have to have outside jobs in order to feed our farms, you must see there is a huge problem!

I believe, unless the country as a whole wakes up to the fact that "agriculture is the single most important industry in our country", and treats it accordingly, large corporate farms will prevail. Then just as you said, consumers will pay the price!

[cakadu]

How overcapitalized are we? In many cases I think we are asset rich and cash poor. Some of the developing countries do not have all the assets we have and in fact farm with a whole lot less. One fellow from Chile who was in this country for a number of years, said to me that while we have one or two combines, a host of grain trucks, bale busters etc., the producers in his country are lucky to have an old tractor and in many cases still farm with basic, rudimentary implements. Who is gaining?

Chile also understands about growing what is demanded out there and not growing what won't make them any money and help them to sustain themselves. They simply won't survive without it. How much better off are we than the Chilean producer? Many here won't survive unless they change their current (and age old) practices.

Instead of looking after the land, we are forcing it to produce far more than it ever was intended. I remember growing up and seeing all kinds of land in summer fallow. Now we can't afford to do that anymore and the rotation is barley-snow-barley or barley-snow-canola. What about looking at what the land wants to do instead of forcing it to do what we want?

Something is going to have to give and history shows us that mother nature usually wins out!

[bombay_43]

Overall I don't think that anyone has more love or concern for Mother Nature, than a farmer! The fact is, summerfallow costs money, and is a luxury that not all farmers can afford.

Check out land prices that Cowman was talking about. No way can a farmer pay those kind of prices, and not have his land produce! Once again in our ideal world....

I would venture to say that those who have unrealistic expectations when it comes to agriculture, are not the ones who make their major income, farming.

[cowman]

Actually our government "experts" have been telling us for years that only dinosaurs would ever use summerfallow. Our exalted agricultural minister just recently discovered that summerfallow is the answer to all our problems thus solving 30 years of science in one day!!! That and growing trees...we'll have huge tree plantations clean across the southern prairies! This will solve that pesky drought and clean up that surplus of wheat! And stop those whining farmers complaining about subsidies, because they'll all be too busy peddling their spruce trees in town!
When you have leaders like this you had better realize you are on your own and give up any idea of any govt. support! And you start to realize if all the departments of the govt. are so stupid this country is going into the tank real soon! Well unless you live in Quebec and make airplanes!
Frankly summerfallow is not really an option anymore, at least on this type of land. And the barley/canola rotation works very well in my area. There is not a decrease in productivity but an increase. And with the new GMO canolas I think a lot cleaner land!

[cowman]

Jensco: There is nothing wrong with starting small...everyone usually started there at one time. I will say it is a lot more difficult, than in the past, but still possible. The trick is to keep your nose to the grindstone and don't lose sight of the goal you are shooting for. And remember the old saying" Hard times don't last but hard people do!"

[cakadu]

I don't have any doubt at all that producers love the land - they likely wouldn't be there if they didn't. But sometimes loving something and doing the right thing aren't always the same thing.

Land prices are out of whack, but why buy more when you can never hope to get a decent return from it? How feasible is it to get $10/bu barley to pay for that land?

We all seem to be buying into this bigger is better notion and in order to survive we've got to get bigger.

Earlier today Cowman talked about growing cantaloupes in Hanna. He actually isn't that far wrong. There is a fellow in Maple Creek, Sk that grew 12 acres of pumpkins and several acres of melons. With the pumpkins, he grossed $12,000/acre and netted about $8,000/acre - so I'm told. He has a u-pick pumpkin operation and you can see that it did do well. Yes, there are a lot of upfront costs for seed, trickle watering systems etc., but look at the return. There is only one other cash crop that nets you like this and as far as I know pumpkins won't land you in jail.

Not everyone can grow pumpkins, and if everyone did, then the price would go down. What is important is that it is the innovation that makes it unique. Why work harder, longer and go more in debt when you can work smarter? It all comes down to risk and how much you're willing to accept.

The greater the risk, the better the payoff - normally. Yes, we keep telling the young that there is no money in farming, but I would hazard a guess it is doing it the way it has always been done. There are producers out there who are not going with the status quo who are making a pretty decent go of it. What would be wrong with letting the younger generation try something a little different? What have you got to loose? If you gave up 5 or 10 acres to test something out, would it be any worse than planting those acres to wheat and not getting your costs of production out of it?

Personally, I would like to see all you guys stay out there on the land and be able to make a decent living at it. How can we collaborate and help you guys to do it? I include myself here because I produce lamb as well. We don't sell it in the traditional markets and do all of it ourselves - we've cut out the middleman. Not that that is an easy undertaking either, but we're willing to do it. What if you were to work with a couple of neighbors, one who maybe has some selling experience and who likes to do it and see what markets you can find on your own.

Grow wheat if you must, but what about growing a variety that makes better noodles that can go into the Japanese market, or that will make better frozen bread dough, which is what the majority of bakeries - even good old supermarkets- are using to make that fresh baked bread everyday.

I have a lot of respect for producers and what they do and really want to see you all succeed, stay on the land and continue to do what you know and love.

[cowman]

Linda: I'm not against anybody getting out there and trying to make a buck. Good for them!
A lot of people in my area are doing the saskatoon thing and black currants. Sure is interesting talking to them about it, but personally I'm not interested.
Why do people buy more land when it can never pay for itself? Here's my neighbors idea on this...If the production can pay the interest that's all I want, as I'll make my money on the value going up.I know for a fact he bought one quarter,farmed it for 5 years and sold it for twice the money! I know this is true because I saw the check! Now I would say that sure beats a daily interest saving account at your local bank? Our land prices have more than tripled in the last twelve years.
I know veggies can put up some awesome numbers. I am always surprized that people would drive out to a place like Maple Creek to pick them? I mean where do they come from?
Let's face it, grain farming on a big scale, is a pretty good life. If wheat and barley and canola made a decent return it would still be the preferred method of farming. Livestock requires a lot of work and it ties you down. I imagine these little special crops are pretty close to the same. Wouldn't it be a lot more fun to spend summer at the lake and winter in the curling rink? Do you understand why farmers don't want to change?
Incidently I was talking to a young guy who used to work in the patch who is now growing that "specialty crop" you alluded to. He says he is netting about$5000/month! He said he wants to stay small so he won't attract undue attention! Says it sure beats wrestling power tongs around! He doesn't look at it as all that wrong as the government is in the business too! He also told me the stuff the government is growing is no good!

[bombay_43]

Land prices do the same thing as a *****s pants. They go up, and down! Farmers can not rely on their land for a retirement fund, as the final dollar amount is not in, until the land sells.

Right now land prices in my area are almost the same as 1982. We purchased a quarter back then for 70 thousand. In 1989 we purchased a comparable quarter less than 2 miles from this one, for eighteen thousand!

We have no immediate plans for retirement, although prices on land would dictate that now is a good time to sell.

The assets in farming, are just too volatile to be reliable for retirement planning.

Buying land, to resell, just to make money, is called speculating. Most farmers that I know do not base their land purchases on this type of speculating.