Western Seperation

[Muttley]

Depends how you look at this topic, is it a east/west issue, or a ticked off at the feds issue.
I am certainly a westerner, if given the option to seperate I would give it a lot of thought before saying which way to go.
I beleive we in western Canada are unequal to the east. They are given priority mainly because of the high number of votes they can give versus us in the west.
Can we survive on our own or would we need the U.S.A.?
Do we have the political clout out west to make a impact in the world markets or would we be shunned?
Maybe it's time for a referndom out here just like in Quebec????

[countryguy]

Before I start on this topic I would like to state that I am not against any individuals in Ontario or Quebec.There are many farming people there that are going through the same things as we are here in the west.

What I see as the problem we have here in the west is that we are fighting many eastern votes from people who know diddley squat about agriculture and polititians who know better but won't put their big fat MP pensions on the line and speak out.

I don't see why we couldn't draw a line at the Ontario/Manitoba border and be far better off than we are now.The amount of resources in western Canada is phenominal!What do they have in those two provinces?I wouldn't have a clue what it would take to run those two provinces and we have seen that they don't understand our needs.That said wouldn't it be smarter for us to each run our own little portion of the country?

I do feel sorry for Atlantic Canada but geography doesn't allow us to take them with us.

Ontario and Quebec WILL crumble when we're gone....

[dalek]

I don't think it's as much an East vs West thing so much as Everybody vs. Toronto and Ottawa, except a lot of westerners don't seem to understand that Ontario exists outside Toronto and Ottawa. BTW last I heard, Ontario was self-sufficient in wheat.

[countryguy]

Dalek,or anyone else from Ontario or Quebec please don't take offense to this discussion.We know there are many farmers in your provinces that are having just as rough of a go of it as we are.(I pointed that out in the first paragraph in my first post)

You are probably right in saying it is an everyone verses Toronto and more importantly Ottawa issue.

[Muttley]

Maybe from what I am picking up thus far on this topic it is not a west versus east thing. Maybe it is just a farmer versus gov't situation.
Are our problems in agriculture do to a miss informed ministers office? I myself have my doubts.
When I hear some of the reply's that come out of our govt's mouth, I find some stupid and some that tell me we do not have enough votes in the west for them to care.
For years it seems that political parties appear to favor the east, I think we have even seen this with the western based parties. They see openings in the east that will help to secure their future and we start to get forgotten out here again. Go where the votes are attitude.

I feal the government of this country has to get away from this no subsidy attitude. They know the whole world is doing it, it just matters how you word the legislation.
I don't want to base my living on a subsidy or gov't programs but unless our costs come down or we start charging the consumers of the world more, that is the way it may need to be.

[cowman]

All the reasons Quebec gives for separation are as nothing compared to the"economic rip off" we've been subject to over the last century and more.
The out and out theft of Albertas resources has been a scandal. The NEP took something like 80 billion out of our hands! What will Kyoto take?
There have been studies done on whether Alberta would be better off alone and there is only one conclusion...YES!
Just from our transfer payments $7 billion per year we lose around $3500 for every man,woman and child! $14,000/family of four/year!
Manitoba and Sask. have always been a problem. I don't know why...I mean they have all kinds of good people and lots of resources. But they keep voting in these dingbat governments...while their young people leave to work in the oil patch in Alberta!! You would not believe how many!!!
However this general screwing isn't limited to Alberta or the oil patch! I can remember as a kid how all the top calves at the auctions went to Quebec. Now how could this make sense? Well it turns out the federal government(read that the tax payer) paid the freight. On top of that the western grain farmer got the priveledge of paying to have his grain shipped to Montreal so those calves had something to eat! How many of you can remember when malt barley was accepted for export through Thunder Bay? And after you paid to get it there and then through the great lakes and unloaded in Montreal; that it suddenly turned into feed barley and was no longer elligible for export? Guess where it went...the Quebec feeder!
Of course this little con didn't last forever as farmers just quit shipping!
My Dad told me that in the depression the only help that came, came from England! Not one bloody cent from the east! And the depression wasn't all that bad in Ontario and Quebec.He also told me a story about a battle they were in in Italy. They'd been up on the line for over a month in very heavy fighting. They had lost a lot of men and they were pretty well exhausted. There was a lull in the fighting and they were told they were being pulled to the rear for a week of rest. He said the next day they marched the Van Doos up, all polished up and with new equipment! The news cameras all whirling away for the news reels. To relieve the dirty ragged western troops...also captured on film! That night the Germans bombarded the hell out of the frenchmen all along the front. The next morning guess what happened....back up to the front went the western boys and back came the Van Doos. My dad said it was pathetic...they were crying for their mothers! He said they sure gave it to them useless French soldiers! And there wasn't one damn camera grinding away then!
Did you know there are two different Sears catalogues(and used to be two Eatons)! Same basic catalogue but different prices! I have seen them!
My own personal preference would be to join the U.S. I have a lot more in common with the rancher in Montana or Idaho than with easterners! We are one people and eventually it will happen!
As it is now we send money east and they send us things like the gun law, species at risk, bi-lingualism, politically correct legislation! We need to get rid of these parasites! I could go on for days about this!

[Muttley]

I agree with a lot you are saying Cowman. I wouldn't be against joining the states. I doubt that it will ever happen therefore what do we do with the east.
I am fed up with us being forgotten out here or better yet I guess we can call it ignored. The gov't we elected here in Sk. is sure not helping our situation. We have our boundaries set up here to benefit the urban votes and they certainly cater to them.
No matter how you spell it, in Canada agriculture is put on the back burners. Even in the west, urban residents seem to be not wanting to help the farmer unless their job or pocket book becomes effected.
To many people think we are a burdan to help yet many do not realize just what it is we provide to them. It really bugs me when somebody tells me agriculture does not effect them. Take agriculture out of this country, there's not alot left.

[cowman]

Don't get me wrong I sympathize with farmers everywhere! In Ontario,the Maritimes and even those in Europe! The whole problem is we are always going to be ignored because we are not organized. A classic example of "mobbing up" would be the school teachers! My mother was a teacher during the war. Her first year she got $600. The school board couldn't come up with that much so she took a cut in pay to $400! Now compare that to today? These people are now organized....to the point where they defy governments and hold the general public hostage! My mother thinks Klein should can the whole works...and her with three daughters who are school teachers!!! Now think what would happen if every farmer in the country held back their product for one week! And stopped all imported product from entering the country. Might have to riot and burn up some government buildings(they do this in France on a regular basis)! Or block off the roads for the summer,like the indians!
But this is Canada, right? We'd never do anything like that! And that is precisely why we will never get anywhere. We are ruled by a bunch of eastern thugs and mobsters and if we don't want to rebel then we get just exactly what we deserve!
And why would the urbanite care about agriculture. If they had to pay more for food they couldn't have the necessities of life...you know the SUV, the cottage at the lake, the caribbean vacation. The attitude of the wealthy urbanite is if the peasants have no bread let them eat cake! Well we all know where that could end up, right?
Don't expect any help from the federal government! They have made it very clear that they don't intend to do anything...just by leaving clowns like Vanclief and Goodale in running the show! Accept the fact that you are here for two purposes...to send cheap food to the eastern heartland(not to mention hard cash)and to buy their inferior products at high prices. This is and has always been official government policy! Read the memoirs of Sir Jahn A. Macdonald! We are a colony for Ontario and Quebec to exploit!

[bombay_43]

Cowman you are so wise! You echo my exact sentiments. I can't believe you're only 49!

I have come to accept the fact that no matter which way you turn, your ass is always behind you! It just seems to be something you can not change!

We have always accepted the unfair treatment dished out from the east, and will continue to do so. We lack the testicular fortitude necessary to stand up as a large group and say "NO MORE".

Farmers will never form a union, because they are too busy competing with one another, instead of helping each other! As long as we view each other as rivals, someone to compete against, this trend in our agriculture will continue.

If any farmers from Quebec read this, perhaps you could explain a little about your provincial/federal program, which guarantees you your cost of production?? I believe it is called "ASSURE"?

And maybe someone can explain why the other provinces don't have this same thing. It has been in existence in Quebec for some 23 years!

[Deb]

You are right. Farmers compete with each other which is why they have a hard time speaking with one voice. I've been reading the history of the United Farmers of Alberta (and Ontario, SK, MB etc.) They knew what was what and I think the UF should be resurrected (I'm not talking about the UFA store where we buy our farm supplies).
If you want to read a good book that explains what has happened to the west, read Writing Off the Rural West: Globalization, Governments, and the Transformation of Rural Communities.
Here's a quote. "Certainly large industrial capitalist farms such as industrial hog barns with their paid labour force operate like non-farm capitalists; their economic needs include the control of farm work. But even agribusiness corporations that are not directly involved in farming have an interest in controlling farm work as a way to advance the use of their inputs on farms, or to assure the supply and quality of farm outputs to their processing plants. And, like workers, prairie farmers have resisted this tendency, more successfully before WW2 than currently."

So bring back the United Farmers of the west. They believed in level playing fields. They believed that land and labour were the ultimate sources of wealth with ownership of land by direct producers. They also believed in co-operation between the consumer and producer, which is what we need now!
The closest thing we have to the United Farmers is the National Farmers Union. Have you read the latest issues of their magazine, "Union Farmer"?
As for joining the states, we're half way there with our eyes closed. Who has control over most of our raw resources, including agriculture? My friend says that Hawaii was annexed by the U.S. without a fight because they quietly took over economically. If this is true, we are doomed, especially since our culture is so Americanized, people are drugged by sit-coms and war movies and our public information station CBC is being continually slashed so that there will be no representative left who will speak for the Canadian public.

[cakadu]

Deb and others - you may be interested in a conference being held next week that is going to address where rural communities are going to be in 2015. It is called Roots and Wings and is sponsored by the Western Agri-Food Institute. You can find out more about it at:

www.westernagrifood.org

Who authored the book you refer to and where can one find it?

[cowman]

Deb: Is this a bad thing? That we are moving toward a union with the U.S.?Why wouldn't we want to be part of the greatest economy the world has ever known? Has NAFTA been good for the west? Does the CBC represent the Canadian public or the eastern power elite?
Do you realize without American capital and investment there never would have been an oil and gas industry in western Canada? The eastern banking system would not take a chance on what they considered too great of a risk! Do you realize without our American markets our agriculture industry would be belly up? Would you like to return to a time when everything we produced went east at whatever price they decided? And everthing we bought came from the east, again at whatever price they decided?
I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says it all "My Alberta doesn't include Canada!"

[Deb]

Writing Off the Rural West is edited by Roger Epp and Dave Whitson, published by the University of Alberta Press in 2001. Your local bookstore will order it for you if you can't find it.

[Deb]

I don't know where you've been, but the world is entirely pissed off at the U.S. and there's a bunch of nutcases in charge, ready to nuke the world. Bush and his government are made up of oil and munitions barons and they are using "terrorists" as an excuse to invade other countries. I don't want my son to go to war for oil corporations.

CBC represents all of Canada, that's why I listen to it all day. My relatives are spread across Canada and this helps me understand their needs and thoughts and CBC binds Canada together nicely. That eastern elite you despise so much is rapidly chopping up the CBC so you don't have to worry, soon there'll be no public broadcasting.

As for oil and gas, agriculture, and NAFTA, I'll never convince you that American takeover has left us horribly vulnerable and small oil producers, like small farmers, have been swallowed up by American corporate imperialism. The profits go south.

[cowman]

When you say the entire world is pissed off with the U.S. do you include our own government who are basically in lockstep with Bush? Or Tony Blairs' Britain? Why is it that the American public are squarely behind their leaders if they are a bunch of "nuts"? Are we so much more enlightened and morally right than our American neighbors?
Do you really believe the CBC is unbiased? Can you not detect a strong leftist bias? Why should we even have public broadcasting? Is it fair to the private companys trying to compete?
The truth of the matter in the oil and gas business is that it is an international business. There are big players from all over the world. And Deb there is not one thing stopping you from buying shares in American oil companys and getting your fair share of those profits! Would you be happier if the profits went down east to Bay Street? Or maybe to the old state-owned Petro Canada?
You need to realize that the whole idea of a socialist state has proven to be a complete failure. The American republic is the best system the world has. Not perfect...but still the best.