Western Seperation

[Muttley]

It is easy for people to say the U.S.A. is pushing it's weight around the world. When there are nuts like terrorists or people like Saddam out there I'm very proud to be neighbors with the United States.
I feel that the U.S.A. could offer us more than the east can ever. Would I be willing to join the states as a country is not quite so clear to me yet. I think I would, but how much of my thinking is clouded by my hatred for our eastern government.

[Deb]

Americans are waking up from shock after 911 and wondering what is going on with their warmongering government that's eager to start invading more foreign countries. Read "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore. It's #1 bestseller all over. By the fifth day of release, the book had gone into its 9th printing! Thousands of people are lining up to hear Michael Moore speak out.

You won't hear much from private media because their advertisers (corporate America) have them blackmailed into not questioning what George Bush, the oil industry, and the CIA are doing.

Canada is afraid to piss the U.S. off. Most of the free world is very, very dismayed at what the oil-backed U.S. government is contemplating.

I don't invest in the oil and gas industry because it causes air pollution through noxious gases and greenhouse gases as well.

That is false to say that social governments have all failed. Lots of countries like Denmark are doing just fine. Besides, as with any government, it is the character of the people who run it that counts as well as the character of the people behind the people who run it.

[cowman]

I have not read that book but I sure will!
I'm always a little concerned when people rip the oil and gas industry. I always wonder...Do you drive a car. Do you enjoy your computer, television, microwave, hot tub etc. All mostly powered by gas fired generators. And how about plastic? What would our world look like without plastic? I guess we could replace a lot of plastic products with wood...but then we have to consider the trees rights, too! Oil and gas have driven our economy in Alberta for many years. This is the industry that allows us(and a good portion of Canada, through our transfer payments) to have the affluent lifestyle we have. It is one of the few industries that allows a young person to make a decent living, without spending years/mega-dollars in extended(and often worthless) education.
I am always amazed how people have a tendency to bite the hand that feeds them!

[cakadu]

Deb, that Stupid White Men book sounds kind of intriguing and I will be sure to find it and read it.

Do you happen to have the ISBN number for the book - Writing off the Rural West? It's usually found on the back of the book and makes it much easier to track and order.

Thanks

[Deb]

Writing Off the Rural West's ISBN number is 0-88864-378-0 Enjoy!

[Deb]

All things in moderation. The oil and gas industry has boomed like crazy in this provence. Easily accessible oil and gas reserves will only last another 50 years or so. I sure hope we're into solar and wind power by then. Along with the gas wells comes poisoned agricultural land, livestock and people.

Like I said, I have no stock in oil and gas and I have a fair amount of stock and am searching high and low for ethical and environmental funds and trying to sell stock so I can take the cash to build or provide something useful to my local community in which I live.

Somewhere around 90% of Alberta's energy comes from burning coal. We built an energy efficient home with an R-28 value. It's made with structurally insulated panels with OSB board and rigid insulation in between. The OSB is made mostly from aspen. Most light is natural since we have big windows facing south that are argon-filled and prevent heat from passing through. In summer when the sun is high, the eve shelters the windows from the hot sun. We also have a heat exchange on the furnace intake. We use fluorescent lights where possible and shut lights off when nobody will be in the room. I even designed the garage roof so that when I buy my first electric car, we can put solar panels on the roof to charge the car.

We also have a bunch of water-saving devices and gray-water diversions to save water, but that's another story.

Plastic - I remember telling someone someday that plastic will end up killing the planet and wondered if it causes cancer. I'm suspicious of any man-made molecule that nature does not know how to dispose of quickly. Plastic is killing our oceans as it breaks apart and the marine life eats it and starves or chokes or whatever. The more plastic produced, bought and thrown away, the quicker the landfills fill. When the wind blows here, plastic grocery bags hang on trees from miles downwind of the landfill. I take reusable cloth bags to the grocery store. I recycle all my #2 plastic and buy things in clear glass containers which are more recyclable.

Paper - I recycle paper and buy recycled paper to complete the circle. Paper can be made out of any plant that produces cellulose. Hemp fibres are longer than tree fibres and so make better paper and straw of any kind would, actually. Houses on the prairie in grain-growing areas should be made of straw bales.

Our lifestyle in this 21st century is too affluent. The more affluent we get it seems, the more "poor" in spirit we become. And if the lesser developed countries want our lifestyle, we would need 3 more planets to supply them. Read "Our Ecological Footprint" by Mathis Wagernagel and William Rees published by The New Society Publishers, ISBN: 1-55092-251-3.

Consumers buy so much stuff because they don't realize that human relationships are what keep our gregarious civilization happy. Community and friendships are what make the world go around, not money (or it shouldn't be money). Buying garbage we don't need is encouraged by advertisers who are like the drug pushers that try to convince us, the consumer-addicted, that we need what we don't need. They tell us we must buy a big new SUV if we want to increase our status. They tell us we are better parents if we take our children to McDonalds as often as possible.

We need to slow down, shop locally and keep the money circulating in our communities, pay farmers more directly for the food they grow and relax once in awhile in nature.

Happy St. Patrick's Day!

[countryguy]

Deb,I hope you don't take this the wrong way but sounding like you just built a new home,would you have built it out of straw?

[cowman]

Deb: I am kind of shocked you would participate in such an evil capitalistic institution as the stock market! But then like you said it is for a good cause, right? Sort of the ends justify the means?
I am sure you do your part to save the planet and probably the whales! Probably hugged a tree or two? And just reading between the lines I'll just bet you are one of those "affluent" people, but not the greedy selfish ones, I'm sure!
Believe it or not I can respect your point of view. It is not a bad thing. Maybe a little bit out there in LALA land but that is okay...we need idealists in this world, too!

[cowman]

And incidently Deb, the amount of energy produced by coal is 75% and falling fast as practically all new generating facilities are gas fed. Which is good as coal is a very dirty fuel compared to NG. I also note that the latest costs for wind power generated power coming from Cowley in Southern Alta. is 30 cents/kwh. Compare that to my last power bill at 6.93 cents/kwh? Sure hope that old gas and coal lasts my lifetime!!!

[Deb]

No countryguy, I built it out of structurally insulated panels. Perhaps my next house will be, or maybe our children's, as I think I'm about done housebuilding until my next life. I do have a book and video about it and had good intentions.

[Deb]

Cowman and Countryguy, you also have to take into consideration that I am married and the other half has fears, insecurities, and concerns which I have to take into consideration. Believe me, if things were different, I'd have nothing in stocks and most of my money working locally - building affordable solar, sustainable housing or running a community supported farm or something useful that might make a bit of money. It really isn't Lala Land, you just haven't looked around. And no, I don't relish poverty - been there, done that.

Thank you for the % correction on the coal. Glad to hear it actually.

Is there anything we can agree on? Can we start with something we both must like, like the sound of a Meadowlark, or a three day gentle rain in spring right after the crops are seeded?

[Muttley]

Isn't the real reason anyone invests whether it's on the stock market or in the land, to make our own pockets fuller?
I don't have to many off farm investments and what is there is going fast to keep the farm going.
Most fortunes are made because of somebody elses failure or bad luck.
For the same reason some would not invest in oil, gas or plastics, I would be carefull not to invest in a venture backed by animal rights groups or terrorists. That's not to say that I don't because in most cases we really do not know who is on top of the heap.
I do not want to see the forests all gone, or nature ruined but at the same time somebody is going to make the money why not me?
I never quit eating salmon a few years ago because of the dolphin issue, and I fill my truck with gas regularly, I bring home plastic bottles and bags daily, does this make me a supporter of the ones ruining the world or just another person doing what we all do?

[Deb]

In nature, something has to die in order for something else to live. In the stockmarket, yes, somebody loses so we can make money. Sometimes they lose in a big way, like toxic waste dumped in areas where there are poor, powerless peasants or farmers whose cows are aborting from the sour gas that creeps across their pasture. I feel guilty making money off the misfortunes of other people. Most corporate CEOs don't mind, like those selfish Enron executives. Warren Buffett (second richest man in North America) does mind, and has a good conscience and has bawled out corporate executives who lack ethics. So there are good and bad, but the nature of the stockmarket beast compels corporations to do what they must in order to make money for the shareholder and that's why I feel guilty being a shareholder. They have to be competative and predatory.

The challenge we face in order to have a planet with resources left for our children and grandchildren is to stretch the resources out. If we love our kids, we must restrain our present level of consumption (which I try to do myself - I can't speak for my spouse or kids). If we each cut down a little bit on our driving, or bought a car with better fuel efficiency next time we had to buy a car, it would help. However we have to overcome "the greed gene" our extreme self-interest (moderation is necessary). As a community and as individuals, it can be done without returning to the caveman era. We have the technology but we don't have the courage or wisdom yet to admit our sin of greed, ask forgiveness and go and sin no more and create a more equitable world.

There seems to be several kinds of attitudes towards the danger of increasing extraction of finite resources . Some people don't know there's a problem. Some know but pretend not to know so they don't have to look or feel guilty. Others know perfectly well but don't care about future generations. None of these people will do anything to stop the impending crash of ecosystems.

Luckily (or thank God)there is a growing number of parents and grandparents waking up to the reality and doing what they can to reduce their ecological footprint. My dad was a highly educated man from the old conservative school and he used to pooh-pooh my environmental concerns, like you do. Then one day he went to a fancy luncheon where the speaker was one of his peers whom he really admired a lot. The speaker talked about the environmental crisis and what would happen if we didn't get our act together and start reducing society's consumption level. My dad never said anything but began to clip articles about the environment out of the newspapers and mailed them to me.

If you don't buy dolphin-friendly tuna, I guess I can't do anything about it. Your conscience belongs to you. We have free will. But you have to weigh the costs and consequences of your actions. You know those drift nets kill a lot of dolphins as the tuna are caught. Can you live with that knowing the reduction of dolphins will upset the balance of the ocean ecosystems which in turn control our hydrological cycles, etc? My conscience would not let me buy tuna that doesn't have a "dolphin-friendly" stamp on the can. Like I said, nobody can force us to do what is right in these cases.

[cowman]

Deb: I do believe you are doing what you think is the right thing...and that is good! Whether I agree with you or not doesn't matter one bit. I do believe the Martha Kostuchs' of this world serve a useful purpose! They put some checks and balances on the oil industry! If not some of these old boys would be really out of control!
The way I look at oil and gas is this: These are non-renewable resources. They could very well be obsolete within twenty years, not because of overuse but because technology will overtake them.
Things like fuel cells and cold fusion. The prototype fuel cells still use natural gas but the more advanced ones will use water. So lets pump as much as we can before there is no more market and the stuff just becomes a nuisance!
Here is something I have seen that most people have never heard of...It was a device hooked up to a truck. It took distilled water, split the hydrogen from the oxygen, recombined them in the injection system and on combustion turned back into water. The water was ejected onto the road. The electricity produced by the engine powered this unit. It fit behind the seat of a standard 3/4 ton and probably held about 5 gallons of water. They(Apache Resources) were testing this device for a company in Lethbridge that had designed and built it. The operator told me it improved fuel efficiency and power about 30%(it didn't replace all of the gas just supplemented it)!!! He had to fill it up with water about every three days.
Now I don't know about dolphins. But here is something that I do have a problem with...wolves! How come our government is doing everything possible to protect this vermin? We pretty well had them wiped out and now they are making a big comeback. In my area about 15 years ago we had never seen a moose. Now they are as thick as can be. Why? Because the wolves ran them out of the west country. I suspect soon we'll have wolves here too. And our government taking away our rights to have guns, strychnine, and hounds to combat these predators. I believe the world would be a better place if wolves could be permanently eradicated! Lots of species have become extinct over the ages and things always adjusted. So lets clean out these wolves?

[rookie]

I am not sure if I did not get enough sleep last night but after reading the last few comments I just may take a couple tylenol and go back to bed... getting rid of all the wolves and buying ethical funds...
Thank goodnes for this free country where we all can stand on a soap box if we want too.
As for living with harmony with the birds and recycling grey water, Deb, Just how realistic do you think your ideas really are. I mean that seriously. Sure, I don't toss my grocery bags out the window, and I do own a housefull of plastic things ( i.e. computer) but I do recylce and plan on getting a new p.c. in a year or two. Balance. And thats about all we can do in this world I feel. And that goes for the wolves. Excuse me for getting on the soap box, but I have lived in the wild around wolves. Seen the good and the bad and continue to graze cattle in areas that have wolves. I accept the risks and deal with it. That goes for the seperation thing too . We are not going to get it . No extremes will happen.
I think you all have the right to defend your ideas, and thank god and country for the freedom to do it here.
p.s. two thumbs up for the provocative debate. enjoy the tuna sandwhichs for lunch.