Western Seperation

[Deb]

No countryguy, I built it out of structurally insulated panels. Perhaps my next house will be, or maybe our children's, as I think I'm about done housebuilding until my next life. I do have a book and video about it and had good intentions.

[Deb]

Cowman and Countryguy, you also have to take into consideration that I am married and the other half has fears, insecurities, and concerns which I have to take into consideration. Believe me, if things were different, I'd have nothing in stocks and most of my money working locally - building affordable solar, sustainable housing or running a community supported farm or something useful that might make a bit of money. It really isn't Lala Land, you just haven't looked around. And no, I don't relish poverty - been there, done that.

Thank you for the % correction on the coal. Glad to hear it actually.

Is there anything we can agree on? Can we start with something we both must like, like the sound of a Meadowlark, or a three day gentle rain in spring right after the crops are seeded?

[Muttley]

Isn't the real reason anyone invests whether it's on the stock market or in the land, to make our own pockets fuller?
I don't have to many off farm investments and what is there is going fast to keep the farm going.
Most fortunes are made because of somebody elses failure or bad luck.
For the same reason some would not invest in oil, gas or plastics, I would be carefull not to invest in a venture backed by animal rights groups or terrorists. That's not to say that I don't because in most cases we really do not know who is on top of the heap.
I do not want to see the forests all gone, or nature ruined but at the same time somebody is going to make the money why not me?
I never quit eating salmon a few years ago because of the dolphin issue, and I fill my truck with gas regularly, I bring home plastic bottles and bags daily, does this make me a supporter of the ones ruining the world or just another person doing what we all do?

[Deb]

In nature, something has to die in order for something else to live. In the stockmarket, yes, somebody loses so we can make money. Sometimes they lose in a big way, like toxic waste dumped in areas where there are poor, powerless peasants or farmers whose cows are aborting from the sour gas that creeps across their pasture. I feel guilty making money off the misfortunes of other people. Most corporate CEOs don't mind, like those selfish Enron executives. Warren Buffett (second richest man in North America) does mind, and has a good conscience and has bawled out corporate executives who lack ethics. So there are good and bad, but the nature of the stockmarket beast compels corporations to do what they must in order to make money for the shareholder and that's why I feel guilty being a shareholder. They have to be competative and predatory.

The challenge we face in order to have a planet with resources left for our children and grandchildren is to stretch the resources out. If we love our kids, we must restrain our present level of consumption (which I try to do myself - I can't speak for my spouse or kids). If we each cut down a little bit on our driving, or bought a car with better fuel efficiency next time we had to buy a car, it would help. However we have to overcome "the greed gene" our extreme self-interest (moderation is necessary). As a community and as individuals, it can be done without returning to the caveman era. We have the technology but we don't have the courage or wisdom yet to admit our sin of greed, ask forgiveness and go and sin no more and create a more equitable world.

There seems to be several kinds of attitudes towards the danger of increasing extraction of finite resources . Some people don't know there's a problem. Some know but pretend not to know so they don't have to look or feel guilty. Others know perfectly well but don't care about future generations. None of these people will do anything to stop the impending crash of ecosystems.

Luckily (or thank God)there is a growing number of parents and grandparents waking up to the reality and doing what they can to reduce their ecological footprint. My dad was a highly educated man from the old conservative school and he used to pooh-pooh my environmental concerns, like you do. Then one day he went to a fancy luncheon where the speaker was one of his peers whom he really admired a lot. The speaker talked about the environmental crisis and what would happen if we didn't get our act together and start reducing society's consumption level. My dad never said anything but began to clip articles about the environment out of the newspapers and mailed them to me.

If you don't buy dolphin-friendly tuna, I guess I can't do anything about it. Your conscience belongs to you. We have free will. But you have to weigh the costs and consequences of your actions. You know those drift nets kill a lot of dolphins as the tuna are caught. Can you live with that knowing the reduction of dolphins will upset the balance of the ocean ecosystems which in turn control our hydrological cycles, etc? My conscience would not let me buy tuna that doesn't have a "dolphin-friendly" stamp on the can. Like I said, nobody can force us to do what is right in these cases.

[cowman]

Deb: I do believe you are doing what you think is the right thing...and that is good! Whether I agree with you or not doesn't matter one bit. I do believe the Martha Kostuchs' of this world serve a useful purpose! They put some checks and balances on the oil industry! If not some of these old boys would be really out of control!
The way I look at oil and gas is this: These are non-renewable resources. They could very well be obsolete within twenty years, not because of overuse but because technology will overtake them.
Things like fuel cells and cold fusion. The prototype fuel cells still use natural gas but the more advanced ones will use water. So lets pump as much as we can before there is no more market and the stuff just becomes a nuisance!
Here is something I have seen that most people have never heard of...It was a device hooked up to a truck. It took distilled water, split the hydrogen from the oxygen, recombined them in the injection system and on combustion turned back into water. The water was ejected onto the road. The electricity produced by the engine powered this unit. It fit behind the seat of a standard 3/4 ton and probably held about 5 gallons of water. They(Apache Resources) were testing this device for a company in Lethbridge that had designed and built it. The operator told me it improved fuel efficiency and power about 30%(it didn't replace all of the gas just supplemented it)!!! He had to fill it up with water about every three days.
Now I don't know about dolphins. But here is something that I do have a problem with...wolves! How come our government is doing everything possible to protect this vermin? We pretty well had them wiped out and now they are making a big comeback. In my area about 15 years ago we had never seen a moose. Now they are as thick as can be. Why? Because the wolves ran them out of the west country. I suspect soon we'll have wolves here too. And our government taking away our rights to have guns, strychnine, and hounds to combat these predators. I believe the world would be a better place if wolves could be permanently eradicated! Lots of species have become extinct over the ages and things always adjusted. So lets clean out these wolves?

[rookie]

I am not sure if I did not get enough sleep last night but after reading the last few comments I just may take a couple tylenol and go back to bed... getting rid of all the wolves and buying ethical funds...
Thank goodnes for this free country where we all can stand on a soap box if we want too.
As for living with harmony with the birds and recycling grey water, Deb, Just how realistic do you think your ideas really are. I mean that seriously. Sure, I don't toss my grocery bags out the window, and I do own a housefull of plastic things ( i.e. computer) but I do recylce and plan on getting a new p.c. in a year or two. Balance. And thats about all we can do in this world I feel. And that goes for the wolves. Excuse me for getting on the soap box, but I have lived in the wild around wolves. Seen the good and the bad and continue to graze cattle in areas that have wolves. I accept the risks and deal with it. That goes for the seperation thing too . We are not going to get it . No extremes will happen.
I think you all have the right to defend your ideas, and thank god and country for the freedom to do it here.
p.s. two thumbs up for the provocative debate. enjoy the tuna sandwhichs for lunch.

[Deb]

Cowman, I swear you come up with these things just to get a rise out of me! Wolves, predators of any kind, are part of the ecosystem. We have to learn to live with them because they serve a purpose in the wild. They don't go around killing all cattle, just a few once in awhile, especially when the leaders of the pack who stuck strictly to wild game are shot and the young have no elder to teach them how to hunt deer, so they go after domestic animals because they are slow and stupid.

Rookie, our gray water system is simple. It only works in summer and anyone can do this. We have pipes from our upstairs tub and shower that lead out the wall into a rain barrel and the hoses off that lead to the landscape shrubbery. We use low phosphate soap. No big deal. Very realistic. In winter we have a switch and switch the pipes back to the septic tank. We save a fair amount of water this way. Imagine if the millions of homes across North America did this.

You are right about "moderation in all things" by the way.

[rookie]

Deb... this is just an observation... I have seen wolves with mature adults teaching pups how to kill goats. One by one until all 10 or so were dead then leave without consuming one bit. I feel they take advantage of what ever opportunities they have presented. That old theory of the pedator only taking the weak is weak. But then again in a perfect world...

[cowman]

I had a couple of old uncles(actually my fathers uncles) who ranched way back in the sticks in the Cariboo. They said the wolves moved in big time right after the war and were pretty tough on the calves and colts. Seems they preferred an easy meal to tackling momma moose. Anyway they got a big supply of strychnine and just went right at it! The one old boy said they cleaned out all the wolves, coyotes, a few bears,some lynx and all the ravens, crows and magpies. He said the songbirds and partridge were sure plentiful the next few years!
I have to admit I brought up the wolf thing cause I "suspected" it might ring your bell!! Now how do you feel about grizzly bears???

[Deb]

Grizzlies are very, very big and have very, very big teeth and claws. I would not want to meet one that is in a bad mood. But grizzlies too, have a place in the scheme of things.

[ianben]

Some of the questions raised here do make one think.
Is man in really in control or is he just another animal in the system.
If we burn oil and gas make the wolf extinct are we just fulfilling our roll in the evolution chain?
Can an individual or even a large group of individuals have any impact when compared to the forces of nature?
One mega earthquake or volcanic explosion must occur sometime. Your rockie mountains must have cause a few changes when they where formed. I cannot imagine how seams of rock could be thrown about like that. I have just spent the weekend in Devon on the coast and the cliffs show how rock has been concertinered like folding paper. Such power!!!
I am not suggesting we should all be barbarians but dont think we can see the future either no matter which university we attended.

I feel we should all be as free to do as we wish as possible.
Encourage recycling, encourage conservation,and organic farming but dont ban hunting, mining or think organic farming will feed the magority of the people.

[bombay_43]

BRAIN WAVE COMIN ON!!!

D-I-V-E-R-S-I-F-Y!

Let's throw Deb and Cowman into a wrestling arena, and charge money to watch the outcome! Maybe turn a few wolves and grizzly bear loose outside the ring for added entertainment!

Naw... come to think of it, WWF probably already did this! LOL