Prices?

[cowman]

In the last issue of Country Guide there is a good article on farming in Finland. The farm in question was considered very large at 790 acres. They grew barley and oats and fed them to 450 calves. Yields were similar to Canada. The calves looked mostly like dairy calves. Now comes the startling thing...the prices they recieve!!! $975,000 gross per year! $375,000 of that in direct subsidies! From the sounds of this article all feed was fed through the calves, thus all income came from the calves plus the subsidies. Therefore, per calf the market was paying them $1,333. Comparable to a good beef steer here, right? But the subsidy per calf worked out to $833! So the total per calf came to $2167!!
Now how do you think the old boys down in feed lot alley would like that price?
We'd have cattle backed up all the way to the bloody artic circle!! Wouldn't it be nice if our government subsidized us $833/calf?

[bombay_43]

You know Cowman, everyone reads the figures you just wrote, with total disbelief. No one wants to come right out and say you're FULL of it, but they are thinking it!

The truth is, the trend in Finland, is not unusual for the rest of Europe. Over there, the taxpayers have come to accept the importance of agriculture!

In one of the other threads, I recall reading about Denmark, and organic farming.

Denmark use to fertilize so heavily, that a normal application would have burned out our soils here. They produced crops unlike any we have ever heard of. Lime application was a neccesity, as it was taken out of their soils by excess fertilizer. 3 cuts of hay were normal, as moisture was not a concern, and fertilizer did its job. Cost was not a real issue, because subsidies were in full force even then.

Public outcry for organic foods, has seen the country do an about face. Production almost dropped to nil, but no matter. The government paid farmers to not seed their land, so they could revert to organic farming. (The consumer is always right!)

They were very heavily subsidized for not seeding, but this otherwise prosperous agriculture country, is beginning to feel the crunch of a slipping economy!

Are they going to be able to continue these subsidies, until "organic" farming picks up where conventional left off? I'm not convinced that full scale organic farming can succeed, even with all their government subsidies.

[cowman]

Actually these weren't my figures but the good old Country Guide figures. And of course we would never doubt a good old magazine like that, now would we?
Never the less the figures speak for themselves and what it tells us is we are farming for one hell of a lot less money than our European counterparts! Now I'm not sure if they come out in the end with anymore than you or me? I just know if I could get over $2100 for a holstein steer I would think I was in cow heaven!

[cowman]

And furthermore, if a little country like Finland can afford to pay their producers $2100 for a holstein steer, then why can't a big power house nation like Canada, afford to pay me that kind of money? Afterall our glorious leaders like to tell us we are the top nation in the world! I guess the truth of the matter is our country is a gong show, comparable to Pakistan and Cuba! Pretty sad, isn't it??

[bombay_43]

To be compared to the Gong Show, is sad. Unfortunately you are once again right on the button!

In other countries, our government could be found guilty of treason for what they are doing to agriculture!

Ask anyone in NE Alberta what they now are doing with their grain. After all, they lost their rail line last year. The nearest place for them to sell grain is Vermillion or Star! Check out how far that is on a map! Now we are not just paying to get the grain to port, we pay dearly to get it to an elevator!

Personally, we have found our own markets for our grain. It costs around 50 cents a bushel to ship it all the way down to feedlot alley, but once it is on the trucks, a little longer ride, doesn't make much difference!

So explain to me the function of the CWB. Why are my federal tax dollars helping to subsidize "Spring Credit Advance Program", and freight rates through CWB? What is my advantage to forking out federal tax dollars to help those who already have close access to the rail line?

How many years and lives did it take to complete these rail lines, only to have an economic decision close them?

Incidently looks like it is being turned into a cross country trail for people who want to go quading and ski dooing. High income urbanites?

Yep, they sure look after agriculture in this country!

[ianben]

Finland is in the EU and money for subsidies comes from all members states.
UK and Germany contribute more than they recieve most are roughly equal but I think Ireland and Finland gain.
The figures might be right but there will be rules and qualifing regulations to fulfil.
On a steer here in the UK at 7months a subsidy of about $200 can be clamed if one can show enough acres/animal 0.6ha. At 20 months the same animal can claim a further $200 but now needs an aditional 1ha There is also a slaughter payment of about $50. If I farmed in a less favoured area, hills,there may be additional payments. There is a beef cow subsidy but you must have quota and land. Quota has a value as am sure your dairy sector shows.
Subsidies just end up inflating land prices and quota values.BSE crashed prices and I cannot make a living out of beef.
When I looked at moving to Canada return on capital invested was very similar and I think it still is. I would just have more acres or cows and I think a better lifestyle or is that grass always greener on the other side.

Finland might have a good deal though if you could get NAFTA to be like EU and US paid your subsidies while you remained Canadians.

That should challange your politicians but GW should be easy to convince it is in US best interests to stop terrorism from above!!!!

[cowman]

Ian: I sure like that idea of the U.S. paying us a subsidy! As it is they cry and bar the border every chance they get! Americans talk a lot about being free traders but mostly if it benefits them!
The subsidies paid to this Finnish farmer were mostly on a hectare basis. It had nothing to do with how much he produced. Therefore he had slashed his inputs and was farming the "subsidy". Which is understandable, a lot of farmers did the same thing with the GRIP program over here.
The article also said the paperwork was unreal...typical government garbage!

[Muttley]

I've heard that in England they have to fill out paper work just to move their livestock to pasture, is this true?
We are hearing about all the paper being filled out across the big pond, sit down sometime and start to think all the stuff we fill out here.

[ianben]

We did have to have movment licences during foot and mouth epidemic for all livestock movements. We still have a 21 day rule which means we cannot sell stock for 21 days after recieving new animals unless the animals are going to direct to slaughter.
I found this list stating how subsidies
are payed
================================================== =====
Modulation at 3% has been deducted from all the following provisional rates
and these rates are dependent on the UK limits not being exceeded.

- Beef Special Premium (BSP) -
Application/Retention – The claim period is throughout the year with
payment of 60% premium from 16 October and the balance in April-June 2003.
The retention period is 2 months.
Payment - Steers. The first claim is due between 7 and 20 months old with
the second claim from 20 months. Steer payment rate is £90.13.
Payment – Bulls. One claim from 7 months old with payment rate of £126.18.

- Suckler Cow Premium (SCP) -
Application/Retention – The claim period is 1 July to 6 December with
payment 6 months from receipt of claim (60% from mid October and balance in
April-June 2003). The retention period is 6 months.
Payment - £120.17.

- Extensification Payment (EP) -
Application/Retention. Apply on section 4 or 5 IACS Form 2 (2002). Payment
date is April-June 2003. Retention periods are to comply with BSP and SCP.
Payment – Between 1.6 to 2 livestock units (LU) per hectare £24.03 per
animal and below 1.6 LU per hectare £48.07.

- Slaughter Premium (SPS) and Veal Calf Slaughter Premium (VCSPS) -
Application/Retention/Payment – The claim period is 1 January 2002 – 28
February 2003. Claims to be submitted within 6 months of stock leaving
holding with a maximum of 12 claim forms in the period. Payment dates - 60%
from mid October and balance in April-June 2003.
For SPS cattle aged over 8 months with retention period of 2 months the
payment rate is £48.07. For VCSPS calves between 1-6 months old and less
than 160kgs with retention period of 1-2 months dependent on age the payment
rate is £30.04.

- Sheep Annual Premium (SAP) -
Application/Retention/Payment - The claim period was 4 December 2001 to 4
February 2002. The retention period is 5 February to 15 May 2002. A new
payment system will be introduced with a single payment made between Mid
October and 31 March 2003. A new rate of 21 euros with a supplement for
Less Favoured Areas of 7 euros has been set but exchange rates will affect
this. In addition to this payments will be made under the new national
envelopes scheme which will allow the government more flexible ways to
support the sheep sector. The total monies available to the UK for this
will be around £12.4 million.

I am sure you can imagine the paper work necessary to claim these subsidies A simple mistake by a farmer is penalised, possible fraud, government mistake is overworked staff or computer error.