PETA

[boss]

Tactics to counter groups like PETA:
-position yourself as the defender of the public's rights
-messages must be designed for specific audiences
-must let the audience know what they could loose if PETA prevailed
-don't bother trying to change the mind of the committed - they are inflexible and extreme

[rodbradshaw]

Deb
I was horrified to read about the pig farmer in you thread. I agree with cowman, this is a psychopath and should loose the rights to have animals including pets.
One idead that I disagree with you on is the use of the term Factory Farms. This is a PETA and Sierra Club term that is demeaning to agriculture. They coined this phrase to put animal agriculture in a poor light. If we use the term, we are giving credence to their cause. The other part of the discussion should be that if the farmer had been able to make a profit from his efforts we may not have seen the move to these large farming units but since the consumer wont pay , the industry has had to do something to remain in business. The other thing that is forcing these larger operations is FOOD SAFETY issues and the cost of tracibility for our food chain.

One last comment, I remember going to University some 20 years ago and seeing a beautiful Irish Red Setter tied to the railing of one of the buildings. It was about the same weather as we have now (-20) and this poor dog had to sit their for at least 50 minutes or more. Their was a bunch of us who discussed it later and we sure would have like to seen the owner stripped down and tied to the railing and see how they felt. I agree with countryguy most city people should not have pets as they don't understand how to care for their needs.
Rod
P.S. The trial in the U.S. may have an effect on what kind of animals people keep.

[bombay_43]

I believe we need to use another approach with this problem. Possibly use these animal activists to further our own cause.

Point out the fact that many animals that obviously need to be put down due to injuries, disease, etc. are now being clubbed to death, because farmers can't own guns!

Maybe THEY will expend their energies on lobbying the government to allow farmers to carry guns again!

[redhen]

Hi Deb, and some of my friends from the egg discussion )

Is anyone aware that the Alberta SPCA has an award for humane treatment of farm animals? They couldn't do it last year, but hope to resume in 2002.

For the SPCA to have such an award available indicates that there are still some concerns about livestock welfare in general.

Take heart, Deb! I believe very strongly in the small mixed farm as an important part of Canada's future. We need to find ways to make the land we farm more productive. To do this, we may see a shift towards more poultry consumption, since the grain and water required per pound of table poultry is far less than for a pound of pork or beef. Those are the facts, plain and simple. Our planet isn't growing in size, but our population is.

If the drought in Alberta continues, we may need to be even more creative. Years ago, I read about someone in the southern US who was raising Iguanas for human consumption. They are well-suited to southern Alberta's dry climate and are reported to have a flavour and texture much like chicken.

As for PETA, they are extreme, but they are indeed the balance to the unspeakable acts of cruelty committed by disturbed individuals or groups. For all their lofty ideals (that we shouldn't have "pets" for example) and sensationalised reports, there are some seeds of truth in their general philosophies.

We do tend to think of animals as "parts" of the entire farming and ranching process. Anyone who has worked intimately with one or two from a herd will soon see individual personalities emerging. We need to remember that as we raise them. They are not "7 of 9" in a cattle collective. They are individual and unique.

Currently we have three hens in our home, one born without a hip, one recovering miraculously from a compound leg fracture and extreme frost damage to her foot (accidentally caught in a barn door) and another who is recovering from "stroke" symptoms.

All of these birds have been examined by our vet, and each one of them has a distinct personality. They all have different sounds and "phrases" when they respond to us. They like different foods. One follows me around like a puppy, complete with wagging tail, and puts herself to bed each night in a cardboard box lined with shavings.

As far as possible, I believe it is important to honour the creatures we raise. That doesn't mean bestowing them with human qualities. It means honouring their individual rights and needs. It means facilitating their health and contentment.

And occasionally it means breaking all the rules of "traditional" farming and opening our eyes to new possibilities.

blessings, Elisabeth

[Deb]

Whew! Thanks Redhen.

[cowman]

I believe if you own animals you have a duty to that animal! To feed them,take care of them and to not let them suffer. When you have an animal that is old, sick or disabled the kindest thing is to kill them. Example I had a border collie that got run over. For awhile it looked like she might recover but in the end she was paralyzed in the back legs. The vet suggested a little wheel set up for her rear end so she could get around! The kindest thing I ever did was when I shot her! And do you know if it had been me paralyzed I would have wanted someone to shoot me!
What bothers me about groups like PETA is they are a bunch of city slickers who in no way understand animal agriculture or the economics of it. If the farmer can not make money at raising animals then he won't own them! I agree with Rod that the term "factory farm" is misleading. I mean who are these evil "factory farmers"? I live fairly close to a 2200 sow barn. Is this some evil foreign corporation? No! It is owned by a guy I played by the creek with as a child, played baseball with as a teenager, our kids played hockey together....in otherwords my good neighbor! He buys a lot of barley and wheat in the area, supports all the good causes, provides a lot of jobs, and puts on one hell of a party every year for all the neighbors! Is it wrong that he wants to make a buck? Would everyone be happier if all the farmers had to go back to subsistence farming? If there is no real money in farming then there soon will be no farmers!

[Deb]

Just out of curiosity Cowman, 3 or 4 questions for you. Do you live downwind? How many acres does that farmer have on which to spread his manure? Does he have a lagoon? That's an awful lot of sows. Is he raising them for Puraton or Elite Swine or something like that?

[nakodo]

One of the PETA supporters walked into the toughest bar in town, strode up to the biggest biker in the place. He was decked out in black ; leather chaps, leather jacket, leather belt and leather shoes.

The PETA rep waggled a finger in his nose and said "did you know a cow was murdered to make that jacket?"

He paused, slowly looked up and said...

"yes, but I didn't realize there were any witnesses, now I have to kill you to!"

[cowman]

Deb: I live about 4 miles away so I don't get any smell. He injects all the manure and he has a huge lagoon. Believe it or not it doesn't really stink all that much . He only has 320 acres but his brother has about 1500 so they have no problem disposing of the manure. He owns a major share in an even bigger pig barn down south somewhere. And he has some sort of deal with a whole bunch of smaller finishing barns. He retains ownership of all the pigs and basically pays these guys to feed them out.
He is a good businessman and is very smart. Before he went into this business he was an oil consultant who oversaw projects all over the world...Saudi Arabia, the north sea, Beaufort, Venezuela. He comes from an old pioneer family in this area and is very well respected.

[redhen]

Re: Cowman and killing old, injured or disabled critters...

Yes, I was raised with that philosophy. In fact, I believe that in certain situations we should do as much for humans in terms of allowing us to choose how we end our lives.

BUT (you knew there would be a "but") there is an entire dimension you and others may be missing: that illness and challenge bring opportunities for personal and spiritual growth, even with animals. There is a Zen saying that "The obstacle IS the path."

With that in mind, I have been privileged to facilitate the healing of many creatures who otherwise might have met the fate you favour (which is usually far less expensive and time-consuming than rehabilitation) if they had belonged to anyone else.

I know I walk a road less traveled, but I have learned volumes from the critters who have come our way in need of fostering or rehabilitation.

The first was a retired standardbred off the Alberta track, 8 years old, recently gelded and a bleeder. Most owners would have "canned" him, but his owner knew we were looking for a good family horse. I accepted many challenges in exchange for a $400 price tag on a $20,000 claimer, and it took 2 years for his hormones to quit raging, but we learned together. Now 22, Star is my therapy horse who keeps me limber despite rheumatoid arthritis.

Our success in reclaiming Star paved the way for the rehab of many other critters, wild and domestic, whose courage and wisdom have changed our lives. We would not have had these experiences if we held unwaveringly to the "killing is kindness" rule. Sometimes that rule is meant to be broken.

For example, if you had given your BC the option of a good quality of life with a little cart, he may well have taught you a thing or two about the flip side of "humane euthanasia."

When our BC got tangled up in the legs of our horse, the vet wanted to amputate his rear right leg just below the hock. All four metatarsal bones had been sheared, rotated and displaced upward. One look at Jake and we knew he didn't want to forfeit his leg. Collectively, we managed to re-aligne 3 of the 4 metatarsals and the vet applied a walking cast. Jake was 4 then. Today he is a vibrant 13 and to see him run you'd never guess he'd had such a serious injury.

I guess it depends on our willingness to look for the lessons in such challenges. Some people simply don't have the interest, time or money to invest in rehab. In those cases, it is likely more humane for the animal to be destroyed.

Or.... you can send them to us. )

[cowman]

Elizabeth: I am quite sure everything you do is done out of the best of intentions and I do respect that. Maybe your way is the best way and you could be very right about most people(myself included) not wanting to invest the time and effort.
I remember a couple of years ago coming across a fawn whos mother had been killed on the road. He was pretty pathetic. I had a young girl with me(employee) and she made a big fuss when I suggested I should knock him in the head rather than let him suffer. Well, in the end we ended up driving him 60 miles to the Medicine River Rehab center and on top of that she talked me into donating $20 to the center! Now quite frankly I think that was sort of a dumb idea(taking the fawn there not the donation!). But it was kind of an eyeopener because we got a little tour of the center and learned what they do. They have a lot of hawks and owls, which have always been a great interest of mine.
As far as the dog goes, this was a very intense working dog and I truly doubt if she would have been happy if she couldn't work. So I made a judgement call....and it wasn't easy because I really loved that dog!
Euthenasia is a good thing I believe. You wouldn't let a dog or a horse suffer like some people have to! The only problem is it can be a slippery slope and pretty soon you could have people knocking off all the old people. But believe me it is in practice! You would know this if you spent some time in the cancer ward. They call it pain relief...and it is. One massive dose of morphine and thats all she wrote. And that is a good thing.

[countryguy]

Deb and Redhen,you'd be happy to know that I've revived a few animals in my day from near death.Its a nice feeling to see them pull through.I swear one cat I saved thinks she owes me her life for it!! LOL

[Deb]

When I first started working on farms, I had to kill a lot of runt pigs and kittens with distemper and stuff like that. I shook and felt sick when I first killed an animal. Then I got used to it and consoled myself by saying that the animal was better off.

Years later I left farming and raised a family. Now when I have to kill a sick rabbit or one of my red hens, something I know I have to do away with, I feel terrible. I figure that my conscience goes to sleep when killing becomes a necessary routine. But killing one rabbit that is almost like a pet, is hard because my conscience is awake and it just doesn't like having to take a life. I always ask its forgiveness when I bop an animal on the head

[redhen]

There sure is no right or wrong path, is there?

Each situation must be considered from many perspectives, and Cowman I totally understand the powerful intellect of a working BC. That's why we worked so hard to save Jake's leg without resorting to costly surgery... his ability to work and feel useful was indeed his life. Sorry about your girl.

Country Guy, I KNEW there was a soft spot somewhere. ) We have a kitty like that too... she is a total mush-bear, as if she still has to thank us every day for trapping her, taming her and giving her a new life - against the advice from the SPCA and our vet, who feared she may have carried diseases that would endanger our three other cats. We followed our instincts on that one.

Deb... what can I say? Doing the right thing is sometimes the most difficult. We raised Cornish Giants and BBWhite turkeys one year. Everyone was thrilled with our poultry and we made a healthy profit, but the cost to my spirit was beyond measure when we had them processed. The silence in the poultry yard was deafening. Now we have brown layers so we don't have to kill them for protein. Some are approaching the age of 5 and we've already had to humanely destroy a few due to being egg-bound. Some have died of natural causes. The ones who needed rehab and were welcomed into our family rest beneath a fruit or berry bush planted in their honour. That way, they are giving back to other birds and we have a visual, living memorial.

*toasts all the critters we have loved and lost*

[cowman]

Elizabeth: You should let those old chickens have the run of the place. Won't take long for old mr. coyote to set up shop! And just think how you are recycling and letting nature take its course? And remember, coyotes have to eat too!