Ag development vs. Rural development

[Deb]

I will hold onto that comment that there is still wildlife left in England. And thanks Cakadu, I plan to talk to SALTS (which I actually belong to) and the Nature Conservancy. No wetland on our property but wetland right next to us. I must do what I can. By the way I heard a good quote. We were talking about the collapse of future ecosystem and our own life support systems and about that horrible word "progress". My friend said, "Sometimes when one is standing on the edge of a precipice, taking a step backwards is the smart thing to do."

[cakadu]

Ianben, yes we do have an awful lot of land here in Canada; trouble is that very few want to live in some parts of it as it is too far away from anything and there are limitations as to what one can do to earn a living. I was recently at a rural conference "Roots and Wings" where they gave us a snapshot of the census figures from 2001. The amount of land that is sparsely inhabited is enlightening, but no where near as enlightening as the growth and urban sprawl that is occuring in certain parts of the country, particularly here in Alberta.

I don't think it has to be "one way" or the "other way", but we certainly have to strike some sort of balance.

To give you some perspective, those elk that are now wreaking havoc in Jasper once upon a time 20 or so years ago roamed in the hundreds in the areas surrounding not only Jasper, but Banff as well. Now we keep them confined in certain areas for their protection, but would they need it if it weren't so commercialized?

I recall going to the mountains to take in the splendor of what God created for us and to appreciate what was there in abundance and now when I go all I see is the Gap, Roots, McDonald's etc. That isn't what I go to places like that for. If I wanted stores, I would stay in the city and go to the mall, especially at those prices.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just wonder if we have any idea of what we are actually doing.

[cowman]

Actually Linda the problem with the elk in Jasper and Banff is the wolves have driven them into town. The elk aren't dumb they know the wolves won't come into town...at least not yet.
Why do you think all that commercial deveopement takes place(and incidently Jasper is still pretty pristine compared to Banff)? Because there is a demand for it. People want to be amused and entertained. Obviously they have the money.
You probably know there are vast amounts of oil and gas in the parks. How long do you think until the drilling rigs are in there? Also you know this is some of the dirtiest gas in Alberta...very high H2S content.
And when the oil companies are in there(not if but when!) how much longer before the logger? And how long after that until cattle? Look at that nature reserve up in Alaska...I think they have given the oil industry the green light or are awful close to it.
This is progress, whether we like it or not. Whenever it comes to nature or billions of dollars you know who will win. You might hold something up for a few years but that's all you will do.

[countryguy]

The town I live near will survive and thrive,not because of agriculture but do to the growing native population!Agriculture here will be a dead duck within 15 years.I can maybe count half a dozen young farmers within 30 miles of here,and they are starting to lose interest,especially on the grain side of things.Sadly I see many farmers in their late 50's or early 60's buying up land like crazy,thinking they are building equity.They aren't thinking that when they are done and want to sell and there is no one around willing to buy,what are they really worth?There are a few large farms around but one by one even they are going broke and the ones that do remain can't farm it all!

[Deb]

The government should buy up all that land, seed it to pasture (lots of fescue and other drought tolerant species) and use it as a commons and put bison on it.

[cowman]

Oh, Deb that is a good one! Lets see: then we could ship country guy and all his buddies and neighbors out to the land of opportunity(Alberta?) and we might as well turn Sask. into a buffalo pasture too. Then we could get all the Indians out there hunting the buffalo! There would be no more towns for them to hang around in getting drunk!
Now if we could just figure out where the money might come from??? And how would the government force those dumb farmers to quit?

[ianben]

Good to see we do not have a monoply on people with crazy ideas.
There is talk of reintroducing the wolf into Scotland.
If cowman is right, will we have urban Red deer in Inverness?
Why do people think they can predict nature? What will be good or bad. Some of my worst mistakes turned out well. Often when I think I have done a perfect job nature proves who knows best. Wrecked!!!
Can people influence nature or are we just continueing to evolve?
Surly we must be the next dianasaur and make way for the next age.
Turning the clock back is not an option

[cakadu]

Ianben I agree with you - you can't turn back the clock and things will keep evolving. What we need to do is to ensure that our evolution does as little damage to the whole as possible. Not everything we've done has been for the better and just because we can isn't necessarily a good enough reason to go ahead and do something.

I think there is room enough for everybody out there, we've just got to find a way to make it all work. Not an easy task.

[cowman]

Linda: I'm not really up on the new ILO rules. They don't even call them ILO's anymore. My Dutch neighbor tells me that in Alberta everything is wide open now. If you jump through the right hoops you can build a pig barn or feedlot wherever you basically want. And while I don't believe that is totally true(when it comes to governments I am A tad cynical!) I suspect we could be in for some hot old times the next few years! The government has stated it wants to increase hog production big time. And now it has the law in place to let that happen! We may not like it but that's what is coming.
Now I'm not against hog barns or feedlots!! As long as they are not in my backyard...or unless I own them!!!
One of the requirements for pig barns is that they need a certain amount of land for manure and a certain distance from existing farmsteads. My neighbor tells me the bigger outfits are getting around this by giving farmers that are too close, shares in the company thus making them a part owner!! Then they can go ahead and build the barn! It is amazing how people come to accept something controversial once they are on the gravy train! I remember a farmer who fought tooth and nail to keep a small gas plant from being built near his farm. It was going to kill his kids, ruin his sleep, cause his animals to abort! When the oil company wrote him out a check for$10,000(consulting fee!!) and paid him to cut the grass, you would not believe how fast he became all for progress and bragged up the oil company as a safe and responsible corporate citizen! Maybe these feedlots and hog barns need to share the wealth a bit and the problem will disappear???

[rodbradshaw]

Ianben
The wolves will love all that Scottish lamb and baby veal.
Unfortunately people do not know their history. Some people feel that if something happened two hundred years ago or in our case 100 years ago that it was always that way. I remember walking the hills of the Mull of Kintyre on 3 feet thick peat furrows. The land had been sold back to the forestry and I assume that today it is a magnificent plantation of trees. Some people would say that it should have been left to the grazing sheep but if you go back in history it had been a forest at one time.
We have neighbours that homesteaded near us a 110 years ago. They had to go 5 miles to find fire wood that first year. Today with fire prevention the land is probably 20% trees. Deb talks about the land at Waterton, but if it was left to mother nature it would soon be over run by poplar and soon the elk would move on to where grazing was easier.
We need to protect the enviroment from large scale erosion and pollution. But to say that one use or another is the way it would be if left to mother nature is only a guess and a poor one at that.
Rod

[Deb]

The ranch at Waterton now about to be subdivided was grazed, which kept down the aspen, and the elk took their share as well, of aspen. I'm aware that elk like to graze where cattle have grazed before them.

[Deb]

Everyone should get the March 28 issue of The Western Producer and read page 117. Sensible, logical, and a good antidote to the mindless lets-suck-the-life-out-of-rural-Canada-and-become-millionairs-on-intensive-livestock-operations. Let me know if you want a summary. Both articles on that page are good, come to think of it.