Wrong end of the cow.

[Steve]

I think the Farmers and Government bureaucrats are looking at the wrong end of the food chain for applying subsidies.
There is a easy solution, producers ask a fair price for their products to maintain a sustainable business and the Government subsidize the people that need help to feed their families. This is easier to administer because most labour people get wage increases tied to the cost of living.

At the present time there are too many strings attached to farm subsidies and the Government red tape administration cost is high. It is just another way for the Government to create jobs at the farmer’s expense.

Farmers you can diversify and make extra money, the Government is paying $4800 a month to shoo pigeons off the statues in Ottawa.

[ianben]

Steve
Is n,t this a bit like tax. Many different ways to achieve the same end.
Giving the poor a bigger handout would encourage them not to work, spend it on other things than food and make hardworking people envious.
Subsidies to farmers keeps food cheap and blurs the real cost to the individual.
What does a loaf cost the high rate tax payer in EU US and Canada?
If the worst case senario of the US new farm bill materialises it is going to cost the US tax payer big time.
Will they ever add that to the price of a loaf and find the true cost of bread?

[cowman]

Ian: You ask how much the U. S. farm bill will add to the price of a loaf of bread. Probably less than the same loaf in the EU. I believe the EU subsidies are still quite a bit higher. Now this is okay if you can get your production under control, but not if you intend to export this product. So who started this little export subsidy war? The EU or the U.S.? I well remember the days when subsidized Irish beef destroyed our market. They were getting a higher subsidy than we were getting for our product.
And I do know the EU is working on this problem. They really have to get their agriculture under control because it will eventually break them. The fact is no country or trading group can go up against the U.S. and expect to win.

[ianben]

That was my point cowman. This US bill seems open ended. If prices continue to stay low will the US tax payer be willing to fund it.

We all know our free health and free education are funded by tax and governments demand value for money. Their seats depend on it.
Each country has its own version and standards and I presume cost.
Food is just the same each government will always want to have its own food policy which must be seen as value for money by the tax-payer

Different taxes, costs of living,land prices etc mean all farmers need a very similar commodity price in my view.

Was the Irish beef farmer happy with the price he got for his beef?
This is the question we can now ask on the internet.

Our problems stem from the fact that we see each other as either a low cost producer, my view of Canada and Brazil,or subsized so that price does not matter, your view of EU and US.

If we concentrated on price perhaps we could all make money.

We should a least try fix a bottom line.
There is no point you thinking subsidies will save me and me thinking Canadian are the lowest cost producers in the world if neither of us are sustainable.

Lets talk about it!!

[carebear300]

twenty years ago or so there was an international agreement of some sort agreed to by the world's wheat exporting countries for a minimum price for selling wheat. Maybe cowman can remember what it was called because the name excapes me right at this moment. Anyway I think that is what it tried to do and finally failed because the United States was breaking the agreement and selling wheat below the minimum price.

[pandiana]

Even within Canada, as can be seen by following some of these threads, input costs for any particular agriculture sector vary wildly within any geographical area (eg. price of land in AB vs SK) as well as with weather conditions (eg. drought, flood)or seasonal (short season cropping, eg. in our area we struggle to get one cut of hay some years where some places in Ontario expect 3 cuts). How does one go about setting a Made in Canada price for farm products, let alone a World price? Would we let global market forces determine wether a particular sector was competitive?

Once again I am reminded of marketing boards which seem to have come to grips with this problem at a national level although I don't know any details. Any ideas?

Locally, discussion on costs of productions as seen by cowman are very useful as you can relate and compare. There would have to be some sort of national or global cost disclosure.

[ianben]

Pandina
I agree there has to be some cost disclosure. But it all there and available. With a bit of work I am sure I could find the value of land in your area, average yeild, imputs and their cost and arrive at a resonable price for your commodities.
Given this information why would I try too sell at a much lower price in your market?
Today when I try to sell wheat I am quoted what Ukranian wheat is delivered to a port.
They don't want to buy it,very little has been imported but that is what is fixing my price. The Ukranian wheat remains unsold so the price drops so I sell for less. Who is winning in this senario?
Equally US corn fixes your feed barley price.
What I am trying to propose is that the Ukrane knows my costs and offers wheat at the same price giving the buyer the choice of supplier.
US corn priced equal to Canadian feed barley costs and the feedlot owner makes the choice. Of course now you have to provide the service and quality to keep your customer happy.
Price wars have almost dissappeared from the rest of the business world.
Your thread on vets and solicitors is a good example. Why don't they compete on price?
They know that there is only so much business and halving price will not double demand.

Provide a service and make a profit!!!

Be very good and make a fortune!!!

I think we should be able to do this too!!

[Steve]

The biggest problem people have with the concept of setting prices maybe confusing to some because they are throwing everything into one basket.

Some products are produced and marketed locally because the cost of transporting these goods long distances is prohibitive.
One example is hay in Ontario, they may have three cuts, but the land prices are higher at the same ratio; therefore the price of hay is set by local producers and users.
Irrigated land is also the same because the cost of land and equipment is high but so is the production.
Some areas in Alberta have high hay production but poor quality and low in protein; therefore the price per tonne is less than good hay.
Good management decisions, should the animals be transported or the feed?
In some remote areas the cost to produce an animal is less but the transportation cost to markets evens up the net profit.

I am not an expert in producing beef but think that the actual cost of producing a pound of beef may be compatible across our country.
So the floor price per pound of beef could be set at a fair value and with reasonable management the producers can have a sustainable business.
It is imperative to have the correct ratio, number of animals to land base and equipment, because that is the problem we have now to determine the cost of production. ( Some are still comparing the good old days that they didn’t see and think life was good on the farm.) My dad shipped 11 cows from Alberta to Winnipeg and he got a bill for $7.00 from CPR because the freight was more than they were worth and that was in them good old days.

The price of any primary farm product has to be set at average levels and not at highs and lows. At the present all the farmers are howling about cost of production because of severe drought and storages, but that has to be managed by insurance and not the price of the product.

[ianben]

Good advice again Steve.
If we take a product like Roundup and price it round the world there is a huge variation in price.
A bigmac is apparently twice the price in monetary terms in Isreal as the US.

We don't have to have the same price worldwide.

We just need to now what the local market is and not undercut it.

You are right about those focus on sabatical and similar groups who want to charge. Just a ripoff.

I do not favor meetings as these always are poorly attended and get side tracked.

I want the information pubblished in the places farmers check their prices today.

Perhaps our publications like your western producer and our farmers weekly this site and any other place which gives market information and has a vested interest in our future could be persuaded to help?