A moral dilemma

[cowman]

My neighbor is a very astute businessman. He moved out here about twenty years ago and bought a quarter adjoining a quarter I own. He farmed it as a hobby while he continued to run a concrete business and manage his various rental properties and real estate. He has become a very good friend over the years and he knows more about making a buck than I ever hope to know.
Recently he came to me with a proposal to do an area structure plan for our two quarters...a large subdivision. Now these two quarters basically are a large hill and without a doubt one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen. Not farmable(at least the portion we are talking about), just pasture.
He makes a good case for doing this and I sure am tempted! If I don't do this, someday some one else will. At the same time it bothers me. This place is something else and has always been one of my favorite places on Gods green earth. Can I afford to not do this? I mean I have a pretty good life and I'm doing exactly what I want to. But I also have three kids and I'd like to be able to leave them all I can.
Looking at this from a strictly business perspective, there is no dilemma! Never in a million years will this land make the kind of money it will make as acreages. But the deer and moose winter up there and the coyotes have many dens there, and I really enjoy them. A large scale developement means they have to go. Where will they go? We're fast running out of areas like this.

[cakadu]

Cowman, it does sound like you've got yourself a dilemma and it is one that only you can answer. You make a good argument for selling and turning it into acreages, but there is more to life than money.

The land that is gone will never be replacable. We all want to leave enough for our children and future generations and there is nothing wrong with that. What about leaving your grandchildren with the ability to see and enjoy the moose and deer the way you have been able to for all these years?

Have you thought about Ecological Gifting where you get the tax credits for the value of the land donated for ecological and environmental preservation purposes? Something to consider.

I hope we hear from Elizabeth and Deb on this issue as I think they can bring you some very valuable insights.

Good luck.

[carebear300]

Cowman as practical and down to earth as I can be when it comes to making a buck, I don't envy the decision you have to make either. On top of that I happen to be a whole bunch broke most of the time, and will relate a similar experience I had last summer. I have a pasture 5 miles from home that a person from futher away an acquaintance offered me double what it was worth. I just about took the money but finally had to tell him no. He then proceeded to tell me that he had a rich american that would buy it in a minute to have a private hunting lodge for him and his millionaire buddies to screw around on. And you know was I ever glad that I hadn't went for the deal because I would have kicked myself everytime I went by there knowing that I had let that happen to that great piece of land. Again that is just my experience for what it is worth. I guess money isn't everything in the end even to me.

[cowman]

Well I think most people need the factory! Can't have an income with no cows. Their bred hfrs. will give them a calf(usually small) next year but not their hfr. calves. By the time these heifer calves have a calf they will have a lot of money invested in them. So what should a person do? Sell that good 4 year old cow for 55 cents(who produces the 700 lb. calf or the hfr.(who has a 500 lb. calf) for 75 cents? Gotta go where the money is!
I wonder if the price of bred heifers will go sky high? What if its dry next year? On the CBC news last night they said this drought type of weather might be the norm out here from now on. Also a whole lot of cattlemen are definitely not going back into cows no matter what. Too old to start all over. And also, I suspect, a lot of them are going to go broke! There won't be "next year" for them.

[rodbradshaw]

Cowman
I wouldn't believe a word about weather especially from Mother CBC. They tend to listen to the wacko's like Green Peace and David Suzuki, who are only in it to get their faces and names recognized. We could be in for a drier year again next year (4th year for us)but I don't believe that it is due to global warming and that this is what we are going to have to deal with into perpetuity.
Rod

[rodbradshaw]

15444
Cattlemen will cull keeping the best that they can and hopefully they will have enough feed to survive. I agree with Cowman that you have to keep the most effective factory possible. I also agree with the statement that some people will never get back into the cow business and we may see a large number of producers exit from agriculture period as happened in the 30's.

[cowman]

This neighbor is going to go ahead with this no matter what I do. I don't live on this quarter and I doubt I could stop it. He knows the ropes and he knows how to get things done. Sooner or later its probably going to happen.
Now am I an idiot for not getting on the gravy train? If its going to happen anyway? I won't be running cattle on it anymore so won't have to deal with the problems associated with being beside a bunch of acreages. It will take up about 25 acres of a 60 acre pasture. I guess I'll go talk to my counsellor and see if she can give me the inside scoop.
One acre undeveloped lots are in the 60-100 thousand range in many sub-divisions around here. I talked to a farmer west of Red Deer who got 10 lots approved out of a barley field. He had sold 6 of them in the first month! No advertizing, no sales agents, just word of mouth! $80,000 each! Said it sure beat growing barley! The road in would cost us close to $500,000.

[carebear300]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is a pile of money, for that kind of money they could buy most of Saskatchewan. Just kidding should have known, this is Alberta we are talking about.

[jmillang]

I've heard that concept from a couple of producers as well. They were concerned with liquidating the herd and loosing all their genetics. The other plus is that heifer only likely needs have the feed to live on as the big cow.

Both concepts are valid but hold little economic benefit. By selling the cows you stop any income for the next two years, plus you have no idea how well your breeding program will work. We've been in the cow business many years and one heifer calf crop turns out the next is the pits interms of mothering, milking disposition etc. Now throw in the fact of reduced feed intake on developing females and we have a whole bunch of unknowns.

Around Central Alberta we seem to have a sigh of relief about the feed situation. I do know that not everyone has found enough yet (and what amount is enough) but with rain we now have green pastures and even a few guys west of Olds say the cows can't keep the grass in check (must be good grazers).

Any choice producers make must be made in an informed thought out process only bad decisions can be made out of panic.

[cowman]

Oh its rockin and rollin out here! No recession around here! Red Deer is a zoo...don't even try to get into a decent restaurant on the weekend without a fairly long wait! I think a restaurant here is like a ticket to print money! Traffic is brutal...on my recent trip to Sask. I was amazed at how little traffic there was. From my perspective you guys have got a good thing going for you, you just don't know it!
Personally I'd be happy living in the sticks with just some little town close by to buy the necessities. Don't like the city and never will.
I really liked Saskatchewan. I met a lot of real freindly people!

[cowman]

It is amazing how the pastures are coming back! Another half inch of rain last night(good for the pastures but not so good for the oil lease reclamation business!). I suspect the recent rains will toughen some people up and get them in a frame of mind to try to hang in there. Maybe this drought thing has broken??? Maybe I can afford to hang in there??? I hope it works and mother Nature will co-operate. These are stressful times.

[cakadu]

To give you a little more to digest and to quote a phrase my mother used - If the neighbor jumped off the high level bridge (I lived part of my life in Edmonton), would you go too? Sure, Red Deer is booming, primarily because of oil and when the next downturn in the oil patch comes (which may be sooner rather than later) what will happen then?

At the land use conference in January of this year, it was suggested that we take from the land only what does not impair future generations to do the same. As we loose agricultural land - like your pasture, we are forced to move into more marginal and/or forested areas in order to obtain more land for grazing. The pressure becomes stronger to have intense livestock operations because of less land, which in turn conflicts with those who don't want these operations on the back doorstep. To increase our productivity, we need to manage areas better and take marginal lands and make them better for grazing etc.

We have 2 choices - we can grow out - suburbia or we can grow up - intensity. Look at the number of single family homes in Red Deer or homes where only one person lives. Should we be using the land to parcel it out for $80,000 acreages? How have you felt about these people that have acreages with one or two horses on them? What about the total infrastructure costs? How much of it will you have to bear?

If we continue to want to do everything, everywhere anytime, we will irretrievably break areas down. Once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't get him back in.

It's not an easy decision you have to make and I certainly don't envy you.

[leland]

Glad to hear someone out there is getting rain. We are north of Edmonton and still have only had 1.5" all season. Pastures still very poor and the next round of cow liquidation is about to start in this area. Silaged 10 tandem loads of Seebe Barley off an entire quarter. 5 loads off 55 acres that last year gave 39. How do we hold these cows over with $150 hay bales? We rented extra grass at $27.50 per month to get us through and reduce our stocking rates but we will only have feed for the calves, no winter cow feed. We have always kept a low stocking rate and didn't feed any cows untill Jan 15 last year and 1/3 of the herd grazed till Mar 15 last year. This year we will surely start winter feeding by Sept 30. Our grazing reserve held the cows out till the end of May and pulled the calves this week to keep the cows there a little longer. So as we chop feed we are feeding it already. I guess we think of weather cycles as short term but I believe they are possibly 60 to 70 or even 100 year cycles and as our lifespan is shorter we fail to realize the changes in weather. Gernerally this area is a net exporter of feed.

[cowman]

Right now Red Deer is moving very agressively to the east and southeast. Lots of really big houses going up. This is some of the best land around and they always seem to get rain right in the area that is going into housing. Last year they had bumper type crops while a few miles south it was very dry.
The local municipal government is making noises about stopping further developement in the county. So is the Alberta government. But it sort of bugs me that they choose this route. How do they expect someone to sit on land that is worth mega bucks and lose money raising cattle and grain? It's no different than the BC land bank thing. They forced the Okanogan farmer to sit on land that was worth millions to developers and slowly go bankrupt. Now is that fair? I figure if society wants to save agricultural land or green areas then they better get out the checkbook. But will they? I doubt it...much easier to legislate away our property rights.And the sad part of this is speculators bought up a lot of that land, sat on it and used their influence to get a lot of this land developed anyway. Theres always a way if you know who to bribe!
It's just like a show I caught on television about gasoline. Sulphur content is the major cause of pollutents in gas. It is possible to have low sulphur gas but its going to cost something. About one cent a liter. So the oil companies asked the government for a reduction in the excise tax. The government response? Change the law so the oil companies have to comply but no tax break. This seems to be the way governments address problems that might cost them something. No incentives just the long arm of the law.
Our local reeve said it very clearly: People have to live somewhere and the Calgary/Edmonton corrider is only going to grow at an increasing rate. We can't turn the clock back no matter how much we might want to. I'm not going to get in a big panic about this. I'm just one little guy and I can't change the world. If it happens it happens.

[pandiana]

Yes, west central is still getting more rain. A somewhat mixed blessing with what hay there is down on many fields. But we are not going to cut our lawn again after 3 weeks. It will be the 6th time this year with at least two of those dandelions only. And it does take away some of the stress, but we still have no locally grown winter feed to purchase. We are still looking to an very expensive winter if we keep cows.