Johannesburg

[cowman]

I don't know about you but this whole fiasco in Johannesburg left me with a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Here we had all the great white fathers pledging to save the world! While African leaders had their little rant about how evil colonialism had been and how it was the duty of the European types to save them!
Well was colonialism so bad? At least those countries could feed themselves(and actually export large amounts of food!). And they weren't butchering each other like dogs!
Then that paragon of virtue, Mugabwe, had the nerve to criticize Britain and Tony Blair for suggesting that he treat the british farmers in Zimbabwe like human beings? While he lets his people starve and steals the land from fourth and fifth generation farmers? Rhodesia(Zimbabwe) was once the richest agricultural country on the continent, if not the world. What happened? Well they booted out most of the white farmers and replaced them with a bunch of black thugs! They turned paradise into hell! South Africa is well on the road to becoming another Zimbabwe!
So what will happen? Will Africa become a sinkhole for money from the western world? While the butchers continue to slaughter their own people? But we musn't even think these type of things let alone say them! After all that wouldn't be the politically correct thing to do, now would it? The fact of the matter is if the French, British, Belgians and Portugese still ran the show there would be no "African Crisis"!!

[ianben]

Yeah Cowman I had trouble with the logic of the whole thing.
Clean water and sanitation would save millions of lives ?
So they can die of starvation or aids.

Some good politicing was no doubt done in very plesant surroundings but first and third worlds must have very different agendas.
Saveing the plant comes after lifes essentials it would seem to me.
A guy writing in Farmers weekly over here explains how the small things he has seen done with simple things to help these people work best and cost very little.

[nakodo]

So lets re-visit the colonial period when African nations (not all just some) were the shining examples of wealth and production. Who made all the money from this wealth and production why 3 % of the poeple and coincidentally all 3 % happened to be white, wow what a coincidence.

Who got the priveledge of working on these farms and dying at age 45 from cholera, leprosy and other exotic diseases imported from Europe and other colonies by their benevolent landlords...

The world and the issues in it are sometimes as black and white as they appear?

[cowman]

I wonder what the life expectancy is in Uganda, Zambia, Zimbawbe, or for that matter South Africa, if you are a black today? At least you had some law and order and a job to feed your family under the colonial powers.
But I know that isn't the popular"politically correct" way to think. Did the colonial powers get rich? Yes, of course they did, that is what drives humans to get ahead! But at the same time they brought a lot of good things to Africa! We seem to ignore that a lot in this new modern world. Things like law and order, health care, education, and the most civilizing influence of all Christianity!
What is the solution? If our governments pour untold billions into these countries, what will change? I would suggest to you that the privately sponsored missionaries have done more for Africa than all the enlightened governments of the west have ever done? I know this for a fact because not only do I help support these missionaries but have family and freinds who are doing it!

[cakadu]

Who's laws and who's order? Was it the best thing for them? Those of us in the more affluent societies tend to think that what we do is right, but it isn't necessarily so. We have disease over here, we have women and children living in poverty, children going to be hungry at night, a growing number of homeless people. Shouldn't we be cleaning up our own backyard before passing judgement on others?

I think it's pretty hard to know the situation over in some of these other countries unless you've actually lived over there for a time. Even visiting for 2 or 3 weeks or even months does not give you an appreciation for what it is like over there. Once you've lived there for several years, then you get an idea of what it is actually like.

I had the good fortune to hear a white south african lady speak several weeks ago and she said she had everything she could ever want over there - money, big house with electric fence, fancy car - anything she could ever want. She didn't have the one thing that she needed and that was the security of herself and her family. You can only oppress people for so long.

You have to start somewhere.

[Bruce14]

I just returned from a 12 day trip to South Africa and Namibia. We were on livestock related business but also saw some of the sights. Had an opportunity to visit with the locals both white and black. A white women from Zimbabwe came down to Pretoria to our conference. She was concerned about whether she would get back on their 3 generation farm or not and how long they would be allowed to keep it as the military/gov't could show up any time and force them off with very little belongings.

In Namibia I read in the daily paper the Gov't was expropriating 192 farms from non-resident owners. They then in turn give it back to the blacks. A shop owner told me in Walvis Bay that he had sold his farm to a black farmer who was financed by the gov't. The "buyer" has ten years to pay off the loan interest free, no set payments. The shop owner said that no payments would be made and after ten years the black 'farmer' would sell the land to his brother or some other family member and the loan would start over. Doesn't make much sense does it?

A lot of people would like to get out of these countries but who would you sell your business or farm too?

On the other hand, some of the HIGHER paid black workers on the farms were making 1000 rand/month ($100 american) plus housing which certainly wasn't much more than a tin shelter. No utilities. Maybe if the white landowners paid a decent wage things would be a little different. Razor wire is a hot commodity in South Africa. Pretoria has gone from approx. 500,000 people to 2.5 million in just 10 years. You can imagine the strain that would put on everything.

What's the answer? I don't know but one thing is for sure. We haven't begun to see all the turmoil that is about to happen in Africa. It's sad to see a beautiful continent that is so rich in resources, falling apart.

Cowman, I really enjoy reading your submissions to these forums but with all due respect if the Europeans had run the show properly from the start, a lot of this mess would have been avoided. Although I am also a Christian I have to chuckle at your comment of Christianity being the most civilizing influence of all. Most of the wars ever fought and most certainly the wars of today are religion based.

You all make some good points however in my mind there is no easy answer. Be very thankful you live where you do and that you are Canadian. I am a strong supporter of western Canada (that includes western Ontario) and at times think that we would be better off joining the U.S. than enduring the treatment we recieve from central Canada and the federal gov't. It sure is a lot nicer travelling the world though when people know that you are CANADIAN.

[gallard]

Very interesting comments on South Africa and Namibia. We had an opportunity to visit both places in Jan. of this year. It is interesting the observations one makes from other peoples comments. My wife and I wandered into a large church overlooking the town square in Windhoehk, Namibian capital. A gentleman asked if we wanted anything. We said we had just arrived and were trying to get a "view" of the town and of "the country". He said because of a lack of water over-population would never occur in Namibia. However, the lads laying around town and in the park are a symptom of a greater problem. He reminded us that the Africans had been able to gather food relatively easy and sit under the food source and enjoy it!!This had been going on for thousands of years and western society wanted to change this culture in 100 or less years he thought. Two nurses in a taxi on our way to the hotel the same evening said that as far as they were concerned, over population such as in the "townships" in J'burg and else where was a world class major problem. "There are finite resources in our world and they are being used up".
Travelling with a South African machinist was an eye opener. He employed 8 good quality African machinists and he offered to sell his business to them because as he said" you fellas can get a loan form the bank because you are black and I will stay and help get contracts" Oh no boss we would'nt do that because we would lilkely have labour problems. His concern at age 65,which he was was that no German or American company wanted his good business because of government instability.
At some game farms where we stayed numerous university students on summer employment stated that the few good black students they were acquainted with did not really want to stay in S.A.
They were trying for commonwealth scholarships to get out of S.A./Namibia then get residency in New Zealand,Australia, Canada or Great Britain. Their perception was that Mandela provided stability but Mbeci was still a communist and as African governments collapse they drag down adjacent goverments. Possibly the migration of people was more of a problem, because in Jan. many Nigerians and Angolans were being taken over the border.
I fear that capital injection or transfer will not resolve their difficulties. Education is more of a need.AIDS and HIV are going to cost enormously. A UNESCO administrator told us that as much as 1/3 of the population south of the Sahara will die because of the two.
It is difficult to appreciate the resource value in Africa and then the education,jobs,health costs and government inadequacy facing those people..