War in Iraq

[flatbroke]

I'd say that there are 2 things that all of us, regardless of our stance on this issue, can agree on 100%

#1. Nobody is on Hussein's side.
#2. Nobody WANTS to be fighting a war.
However...
This clown had 12 years to comply with UN resolutions following the Gulf war, and showed no interest in doing so. He is known to have funded terrorists worldwide (including el-quaida)and sold food traded for oil meant for Iraqi citizens to fund his military. If we could have gone back to 1938 and Removed Hitler BEFORE his attempted genocide on the Jews, as well as the hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers killed in the war, would we have been justified? I mean, sure he was violating the terms of the armistice by building up Germany's military, but he hadn't invaded anybody yet, right? At any rate, it's safe to say he'd have stopped once Britain had fallen, so maybe we had no business over there...
You see where I'm going with this. It was a noble cause then, and I really do believe it is a noble cause this time.Neither PM Blair nor Pres. Bush will gain any popularity by this action, in fact I guarantee it will decrease with every coalition casualty, a fact both men are very aware of. The irony is that if a pre-emptive strike is successful, we'll never know just how neccessary it really was.

[bobn]

henbent,

Quote "Guess what, Vice President Dick Cheney's company Haliburton just got a HUGE contract to reconstruct Iraq's oil fields and pipelines. US weapon of mass destruction GREED!! Wild weasels at work. "

You erred. You should have stated "Former company". VP Dick Cheney sold his Haliburton shares in August 2000. Want to retract your statement?

[Muttley]

So what if a few high profile American politicians get some contracts to help build Iraq.

I'm sure when they give out the contract for the "Saddam Memeorial Golf Course" that our very own Jean Crutchin will be at the top of the list!!!!

[cakadu]

Hindsight is a great thing and I wonder what would have happened if there had been intervention prior to the second world war.

We have to put things into perspective though - we weren't right there in the tanks and on the battlefields the way we are today. We had to rely on military reports given to the media for our news about the war going on over in Europe. It wasn't until the Vietnam war that we were all subjected to the horros and atrocities of war on a somewhat more firsthand basis.

One also has to consider that the Americans didn't enter into the 2nd world war until AFTER the bombing at Pearl Harbor - up until that time, they too didn't get involved and I suppose that it may have been in part due to the fact that we had no idea of what was happening over there.

I have to wonder if all the coverage isn't having somewhat of a numbing effect on us?

I still don't really know how to feel about it and I've heard a lot of arguments both for and against.

One more thing to ponder, will getting Saddam out of the way really end the problems over there? What if there is someone worse waiting in the wings?

I heard an interesting argument the other day and it does leave one thinking about it. Over here, as a rule, we don't need all family members to contribute to the overall income in order to get by - we did many years ago, but that pretty much has become less of a factor. We all know of families who had the major bread winner, in those days dad, pass away and then the whole family had to pitch in just to put food on the table.

Think about many of these developing countries where that is still very much the norm. These suicide bombers get enticed into doing their missions because their families will be very well provided for. Now this person's argument was what would happen if you took away that incentive? I'm still trying to come to some sort of conclusion on that. What are your thoughts?

[Deb]

George W. Bush was elected because he knew all along he was going to invade Iraq. He's an oil man and oil men get fed up with OPEC. Invading Iraq and gaining control of the second largest reserve of oil in the world would take the stress off having to deal with OPEC.

Anybody who thinks Bush, Cheney, Powell (who was reluctant at first), Rice, Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz have any humanitarian desire to "free" the Iraqi people and install a democracy, has forgotten the United States history in central and south america starting from back in the 60s.

Richard Perle (who is currently a consultant to the Secretary of Defense and Consultant to several U.S. and multinational companies and who once advised Binjamin Netanyahu to abandon the Oslo Peace Process and return to military repression of the Palestinians) and Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense who has longed to see the Middle East colonized by the United States, are scary people. Vice President Cheney was Bush Sr's defense secretary. In 1969 Cheney was special assistant to Donald Rumsfeld in the Nixon administration (remember that crook?)

This old boys club is thick as thieves, they hate dissent and free speech, they'll support the American arms manufacturing industry till their dying day, and they are bankrupting the United States. I support the U.S. troops because I don't think they should be in Iraq and they should come home. Right now they are unwitting mercenaries for the American oil corporations.

I suppose they have to finish the job now, though, so those 500 Iraqi men, women and children who have been killed, didn't die in vain.

[carebear300]

Anybody that thinks that they will actually ever successfully institute a democratic government in Iraq has been smoking way to much wacky tabacky. The demographics of that country are not condusive to democracy. Fifty percent of the population is under the age of 18 and with that high of a percentage of the population that young the odds are against any lasting government as we know it. It will end up being some sort of a US backed dictatorship being the only kind of government that can keep some sort of order in the country amongst the various tribes(for want of a better or more appropriate word Linda would know the proper term to describe those different peoples) And maybe that isn't all bad because we saw how bad the last regime was.

[cakadu]

Deb, glad to see you back again. I know I've missed your comments on the site, so I hope you're able to be with us for a bit.

I read an interesting commentary this morning in my local paper and it was about how the first casualty in a war is language and how we use words to justify what happens in a war. It is certainly making me think.

The play on words is happening on both sides of the "war".

Prior to the first suicide bomb attack, the Iraqi resistance fighters were referred to as "irregulars" and "guerillas" - now they are "terrorists" despite the fact that they are fighting in the open and Rumsfeld even went so far as to call them "death squads". Because of the juxtaposition of the terms by Bush et al in their speeches, many now believe that Saddam was responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks - for which there has been no direct link.

This manipulation of words is no where near what Saddam has done however, because he has been a man that has held anti-religious and secular views all of his life and now suddenly this is all tied in with the Jihad and martydom attackers.

The writer goes on to state that even the term coalition is used to infer that this is somehow similar to the 1991 Gulf war where 28 countries - 13 of them Arab - were genuinely engaged on the ground to stop the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and had the backing of the UN versus the non-UN supported "wanton act of aggression" we are seeing now.

Many of those that have signed on with the present "coalition" have yet to send any troops at all, with the majority of troops being comprised of the Americans, British and a smattering of Australians. There are many countries that have joined the "coalition" but have yet to do much of anything.

This draws me back to an earlier question - if we are just wanting to support the "coalition" to avoid penalties and sanctions, then how sincere are we in our support?

[bmj182]

"military repression of the Palestinians" ,
pleas look at a map! Isreal has about as
much territory as a typical rural municipality
in Canada. If the arab nations were so kind
and generous with their "oil money" as you
would put it, everything would be just fine!
Saddam Hussein was giving Palestinian
families $25, 000 if a family member
participated in a suicide bombing! Are these
the acts of rational people? Granted, the
U.S.A. has made several mistake's in the
past but would you really have this dictator
in power instead? The world has stood
back and watched this type of thing for too
long, its time to fix it! This from a family filled
with "oil men", and damn proud of it.

[rookie]

OIl ia not my primary business... but watching world events, aswell as those in our country have been most my life. My opinions include such that our country has too many useless politicians . Thankfully with too useless an Armed Forces to get into trouble with, so I never would expect them to send actual troops to Iraq ( on that note, are ther very many countries who can send troops capable of fighting side by side with Americans ? Is that why they send verbal support ? You know, those high tech gadgets and all...

As for mid east politics, I do get somewhat ' confused ' . Such old countries... You would think they would have worked out all the problems by now right ? Just some thoughts...

[cakadu]

I'm not quite sure about the comment on the Palestinians - could you please explain that one a little more?

I agree, that what the suicide bombers do is hard for many of us in the Western world to understand. We need to put ourselves in "their shoes" and try to understand it from the point of view of someone who is starving and who's family will be looked after if they go on such a mission. Martyrdom for the cause is something that is taught from an early age, so it is "rational" to them, whereas we have a hard time understanding it. I'm not for a moment saying that it is right, just that it appears to be right for them.

I also agree that the middle east history is a long one and the tribes of Israel have been fighting for many more years than we care to think about and it seems to me unless you experience it first hand, you can't even begin to fully comprehend what is happening. Even the experts in the Middle East that are at our universities say that by deposing Saddam, it will not end the turmoil that has gone on over there.

Let me reiterate - I don't want to see Saddam stay in power and I'm sure that there are many within his own regime that would like to see him taken out. My question is, what will that open the door to?

Nothing is ever completely black or white and what I am hearing are valid arguments both for and against. Many of the points made have caused me to pause and think about it from a different angle. On the one hand I can certainly understand getting in there and getting the job done, but then I can also see the other side where I wonder what the motivation is and where it will actually end up.

I'm glad that I've heard the opinions that I have and am glad that people feel free enough to express them and stand behind what they believe. I am no less proud to be a Canadian now than I was before the start of this whole thing. I don't agree that people should be standing up and booing the American national anthem - that is disrespectful no matter what spin you put on it. At the same time, however, I don't feel that it is too respectful for some of the opinions that have surfaced about Canadians either. We've been there many times before and will likely be there again in the future. God bless us all.

[jensco]

Just to add...Canadians (high tech companies) are currently mass producing items required for the war effort (Ie. night vision glasses). Our military is in the general area providing limited support. Our government does not confirm this but family members in contact with Armed Forces members hear differently. I am not convinced we have the population base to provide additional military support nor do we have the equipment. Rookie, you were the first to bring this up-thumbs up! Sometimes verbal support is helpful in building spirits. Do not discount this - but make sure our words are sincere!

Thank goodness for freedom of expression and the ways we can give our views - great things to fight for. It is certainly unfortunate that fighting is still required. Although motivations play a role, they are not the sole aspect with which to examine. In an idealistic and mature society, war would not exist. Reality is that the world does not exist in the idealistic state. The discussions here are bringing these out.

Politics - Our PM was basically elected by a single province and George W. was elected under different circumstances. Yes, different systems I know but still always cause for discussion. However, they are both elected leaders and that is fact. By the populations making their views known to the politicians, hopefully this can help direct policy. Not likely, but you never know. It is through discussion that we do not feel so helpless in a bad situation.

I was disappointed that people in Montreal booed the American national anthem - there are better ways to express opinions without attacking a neighbour. However, neighbours often disagree and say things they regret. It has happened in the past and I am sure it will happen again. I hope Americans can forgive Canadians as a whole for what a percentage has done to offend. Freedom of expression does need to be tempered with compassion for others!!

God bless those involved in this conflict. May a resolution come sooner than later and may all those brave soldiers find a safe way home to their families and friends. Hopefully this part of history will teach us something new!

Great discussion everyone - Regards, Jensco!

[farmerfudd]

I really dont believe that oil is the motive. There is vast amounts of untapped energy sources in way more hospitable places.
I think the real issue is rid the world of VERY rich and popular nutbars like Saddam.ALSO I believe our old arch-enemy is hideing where his support money came from..Bahgdad. ROLL-EM