Politics

[StrawBoss]

Separation is not the answer to our federal/ provincial problems. The separatist point out the possible improvements, but seem to ignore the negative that separation may bring.

I think all provincial Premiers have to work together ( as they started ) and force the federal government to stay out of provincial business, no strings attached to federal funding for health care, provincial projects and farm subsidies.

Better farming practice--fertilizers-- herbicides and bigger better farm machinery helped to produce more grain, also the animal breeds and food nutrition was vastly improved, and with it came a higher cost of production. Global competition and world subsidies keep food prices below production cost and we don’t have the tax dollars to support our farmers to fight the big bears.

Politicians make promises to get elected, a good example is Chretien’s red book and to scrap the GST. (What a bunch of garbage that was ) The biggest reason that these promises are not fulfilled, is money---small population—small tax base—we can’t ask the employees to pay more tax so the employer can get more subsidies.

The PC’s introduced GST and Free Trade --- free trade is only if it favors USA and GST was to replace the hidden manufacturing tax and pay down the deficit --- again garbage.
To look on the positive side it did increase exports and paid down a little debit, but again didn’t fulfill all the promises.

Farmers are good managers to produce vast amounts of food as individuals, but we still have to find a way to work together and market our product at a reasonable profit.

Canada ( federal government) was first to close it’s borders to protect our animals from diseases and rightfully so, but we are paying for now. In a global environment some of these problems are not so easy to correct.

Farmers will always find a way to survive.

[cowman]

How long do we wait for this miraculous transformation to take place? Another hundred years? Until the oil and gas are all gone? Until we turn into another East coast?
You state"farmers will always find a way to survive". Is that good enough? Is that good business-survival? Who will these farmers be? Wealthy Europeans or rich Americans who are more concerned about playing rich cowboy than making a living?
Something is really wrong with this country. A good part of that problem is the federal government! Yes we do have a small population and tax base but we always seem to find the money for goofy ideas like gun control, Quebec golf courses, canoe museums, etc.etc.!
If you ever get the chance read the book "On the Take". It is a bio of the Mulrooney government but it could have been written about the present Liberal government as well. This is one sick corrupt country! We need to get away from here.

[ivbinconned]

Strawboss; Would YOU please point out the "negatives" of an independant Western Canada.

I find it very disapointing that the reform party, that accuratly analyzed and described the problems, with the way Canada is governed never had a plan B.
Right from the outset Preston made it clear that the only tool or leverage that might be used to achieve the "Western Agenda for Change" (1987)that they so desired, he rejected. He called it the "hammer".
He who holds the hammer has all the power!
Sending men from the West to Ottawa who are seeking specific goals and yet refusing to use the one lever (of power) that would impower them were doomed to fail.
As far as I know Lee Morison has been the only Reform MP who has come forward and stated publicly that the whole effort has been a colosal waste of time. All the rest like the PAY.
A flawed stratagy right from the outset!
And now these visionarys are squirming around (avoiding reality) and are hatching a NEW PLAN....Mulrony lite.
Please westerners ... don'tbeconned!

[StrawBoss]

ivbinconned.

Ontario has a population—12,238,000---Quebec--- 7,487,000 --- British Colombia ---4,156,000 --- Alberta ---3,153,000 and Canada 31,629,000, all these values are approx.

This shows why Ontario and Quebec holds the hammer in the federal government and our democratic elections confirms that, but at the same token most politicians have a duty not to discriminate against the less populated areas. I know you will dispute that, so will I to a point.

I don’t believe that the federal government has robbed and discriminated against Alberta to the extent that it lowered our standard of living, and it’s imposable to satisfy everybody or make this world prefect. To prove my point, look at our Alberta government---- is everybody happy? ( has nothing to do with the federal dummies )

Now the possible negative on Alberta leaving confederation:

Alberta has approx. 10% of the population and would have to inherit 10% of Canada’s deficit.

Are we going to use Canadian dollars as our currency or are we going to print our own money?

No Canadian passports—citizenship—prepaid pensions ---could be hard to collect from the feds.

Are other countries going to recognize us as a sovereign country?

Are we going to join the W.T.O. and the United Nations --- continue with free trade ---control border crossing--- control emigration? -- cost is high to work with the big boys. ( I know Alberta is already paying part of the cost, but not all )

What’s our Alberta dollar doing to be valued at ---is it going to be at par with US currency? ---not good for exports.

Alberta is oil and gas rich, what happens when our resources are depleted and or alternatives starts up --- then we may have to start competing with other oil producing countries that can produce much cheaper.

Indian reserves and federal parks could be a problem within our little country?

What happens to the trans Canada highways?

Are we going to have a military force to protect our borders and sovereignty?


We could have weather disasters that could devastate the agriculture and forest industries.
Don’t count on the USA helping Alberta on products they produce themselves.

US money is developing our natural resources so don’t start threaten the big boys, because you will end up with the short end of the stick. ( NDP in BC tried it and it sure put a damper on their oil and gas industry.)

If you mean the west separating, then Alberta would need to help Manitoba, Sask. and maybe B.C – because the NDP government, labour unions and the native land claims have destroyed that province.

I also don’t agree with a lot of the federal policies and I am not totaling disagreeing with people who are trying to lobby the feds to help Alberta. Threatening to separate if we don’t get our way is not an option in my view.

Small Corporations can’t survive so they are selling out or merging with larger ones, farmers are expanding, European countries are starting to use the same currency ( euro ) – countries working together to fight terrorism.
All the above items may not totally be negative, but would be costly to administer, so there goes the individual Albertan’s get rich dream.

How much sense does it make to separate and become a smaller country?

[wilagro]

Good post Strawboss...I don't think we need to worry too much about becoming independent as the Western Canada Concept web site indicates that only 8435 people have signed their petition as of Oct4/03.

Seems like people are not fooled by their bluster and BS.

[StrawBoss]

Cowman

I think it is a good way to run a business, “ you try to survive in the lean years and make money in the good ones.” Farming, ranching, lumber and the oil industry have been on a roller-coaster ride a few times, but good managers know how to survive. I am sure you saw a few of them years—cowman. I am reading between the lines but it seems you survived without getting too many bruises.
I don’t understand this statement, “ this is one sick corrupt country, we need to get away from here.” Where do you plan to move that’s better? Have you watched the world news lately?

[cowman]

Strawboss: Oh I survived but not without a lot of bruises. That is life. But I survived, not because of anything the federal government did, but because I was lucky and I worked hard and used some common sense and took some chances.
You ask where else would I live...why right here! The same as my father, grandfather, great grandfather did. Why would I leave my country...Alberta! When my greatgrandfather came here it was the wilderness. No one handed him anything on a silver platter especially not the federal government!
I am not a complete separatist. If things could change where we get a fair shake I could see the light. But I doubt things will change. I do hope Paul Martin will be a primeminister for all of Canada not just the golden triangle!

[ivbinconned]

StrawBoss;
Thank you for addressing those things that you see as negatives. I do not see them as negatives but as challenges. Not unlike the unknown future and challenges that our forefathers faced, with bravery and blood and hardship. The big question is courage, do we have as much as they. We certainly do have more comfort in life, my Grandfather raised 8 very successful kids, and did it with less.
I would like to address each point of yours and so will number them with out repeating your points each time.
I would also point out that some of the “negatives” you mention, exist NOW under our present system. How well do you, feel PROTECTED under our present system??

1. Debt; the issue is debatable. But if the outcome is that we inherit a percentage based on population, and only it becomes our responsibility…GOOD!
2. A Western Canadian Dollar! Why not? We could decide for ourselves. What does the Canadian dollar represent…poor government and a poor attitude towards debt, and oh yes…high taxes.
3. Passports? We would still give you one. Citizenship? Yes you would be one. Pensions? Good question. Quebec has always had there own and I will bet you that the feds and Ontario have not borrowed from it like they have from the CPP. A number of years ago an Ontario finance minister said in their legislature, “we have not been forced to pay it back…who could make us?”
4. World recognition? …Why not! Federal Liberals calling the US president names, refusing to support the US in their defenses, second-guessing their reaction to 9-11, some suggest is the reason they have ignored the science on the BSE issue. Do you feel protected??
5. WTO, United Nations, free trade, borders, immigration? These are all issues that Western Canadians have opinions on and are more than capable of producing the intellect, passion, and expertise on these issues. There are many who have made the case that the feds have not represented us well on any of these. I am not “serf” and you certainly are not either. I nominate you as minister of external affairs.
6. Western Canadian dollar? Your comment that a par or higher valued dollar is not good for exports is looking at only one side of the ledger. I spend my money…and it doesn’t buy much.
We have had a good many years of being told that the low dollar is good for exports, and yes, we sure can export a lot of production and wealth. I have never agreed with this concept. Just think…if we had a 10 cent dollar we would hear a big sucking sound as the wealth and production and assets of our country would be swallowed up by the rest of the world. It would be a full takeover without a shot fired! We would have buckets of money but it what would it buy. This is happening…just slower, when we are at .75 cents or .80 cents. And we have been defenseless.
7. Alberta’s oil and gas? I do not understand your concern here. This would be the reality in either case. I don’t believe Ottawa would come to our rescue with IN Canada so what’s to fear. Also Saskatchewan is virtually untapped (see Capitol Punishment in an older thread) and some of us here would welcome Alberta troops if you are thinking of a takeover.
8. Indian Reserves and Federal Parks? Native issues continue to be a problem with in Canada…many have suggested intentionally. As long as Native leaders and federal bureaucrats maintain a “deny reality” position this will continue. Respectable and honorable voices in the west have addressed native issues and have been acknowledged. However action does not follow. Parks??? They would be ours.
9. Trans Canada Highway?? Four lanes and maintain it … WITH OUR FUEL TAX!!
10. Military, borders, sovereignty? “Canada hasn’t set the bar very high. The west could do better easily. As to protection, sovereignty etc. You should be worried now.
11. Weather disasters etc. Your concerns apply now…right. How could we do worse?
12. Foreign investment? See number 6 above. I do remember my dad talking 30 to 40 years ago about how eastern Canada would not invest in western development and thus Alberta invited US money in and thus the oil and gas industry got off the ground. I have said this here before; Alberta has done well not because of the eastern establishment but in spite of it. You might find that separatist sentiment is strongest in the oil patch.
13. Alberta Aid? If only in Canada it was your choice Strawboss, Quebec or Saskatchewan! Who would you help?? I am living in Saskatchewan but would never ever advocate using the democratic mob rule of an Independent Western Canadian Nation to take from Alberta and prop up the socialist, union run provinces on each side of you. I favor a republic form of government, rule of law, not rule of mob. Why is it so hard for us to see what works else where…and then apply this at home?
14. Separation not your first choice? Not mine either!! Outside of a TRIPLE E SENATE it may be our only option. An EEE senate would be the equalizing “hammer”. What are the possibilities…are we brave enough to face reality. Or should we start a new political party called the Ostrich Party. Our logo could be a picture of the bird with its head buried in the sand and its wallet very exposed.
15. Our evolving world! Nothing that you state here makes me feel particularly safe or protected just because I am Canadian. As for the Alberta dream…my kids in Alberta making $40,000 a year find them selves subsidizing the Doctor in Nova Scotia making $100,000 a year!!
16. There has been a wealth of reports and information put forward over the years by academics that show that Western Canada could stand alone and be, better off. It could be a wealthy independent nation. Bigger in area, and population, than many countries. I would submit that had the litany of grievances articulated by many political movements in Western Canada over the past 70 years been imposed on Western Canada in just the past 10 years there would be no question as to what would be under way now. We are like the frog in the frying pan…instead of being plopped into the hot frying pan … with the obvious reaction. The heat has been turned up slowly. To some it feels just right, to others its way to hot but we are to light headed now to figure out what’s going on. This is the way tyranny operates.

[StrawBoss]

Ivbinconned

Thank you for your reply and your answers where as I anticipated, a politician on a campaign trail making promises that he doesn’t have to keep or have the foggiest idea the actual cost to administer them.
I know we are capable of governing ourselves as a country, but at what cost?
That is the main objective of this debate and notice not to many people want to participate in this dead end separation topic and I should give my head a shake to be here too.

I should clarify a few comments that may have been misleading.
Are we going to retain our Canadian citizenship? ( that’s what Quebec wanted if they separate)
The provincial income could be greatly reduced if oil prices drop to $ 11.00 a barrel as they did a few years ago. You said we are exporting our natural resources to fast. Where do you think Alberta’s wealth is coming from? Try and slow it down and here comes a sales tax.

In your comments, the actual numbers are missing, gas tax is suppose to pay for building roads, but do you really know the cost of building one mile of four lane highway or river crossing and interchanges? Check it out, because it is unbelievable.
The so called no good feds build these trans Canada highways and are still not complete in Manitoba, Sask. Alberta and B.C. I wasn’t just talking maintenance cost for these highways but also to complete building them--- I know we paid for some of the cost with our gas tax dollars.
There is a cost to print and maintain our currency, which we don’t directly pay for now.

Most people don’t understand that to provide all the necessary and demanding services, you have to at times rob Peter to pay Paul and make a choice, services, schools, hospitals or roads. Now do you think a politicians on an election campaign trail would tell that to the people? It’s the same old story, the present government is mismanaging our money, elect me and I’ll make sure money is not wasted--- sound familiar and I don’t care what level of government we apply this to.

You talk in general terms as opposition government politicians do, and if they are elected reality sets in real quick. Their anticipation of the tax dollars are not there to fulfill the election promises, so they have to make a choice, raise taxes or cut services and both are not popular with the public. ( but we can fix that by leaving confederation—right.)
This is where you start pointing fingers and telling people you could do better, but really can you? I know your answer, “ will it couldn’t get any worst than it is now,” but I would question that.
We need federal, provincial and municipal governments so the same problem still exists even after separation.
Read my comments on an other thread “ governments studies on a dead horse,” and that’s what I think about most of the studies, so your comment a research was done and suggests that the west would do better if we separate.

Quebec’s reason to separate is to become little France and has little to do with economics, so that’s why the referendum vote to separate was high.

Westerns have a different attitude and out look on life, and I bet the percentage would be very low in a referendum vote for separation, but keep trying because you haven’t convinced to many people in the last 25 years. This is a good democratic country and we do need opposition so go for it.
As I said before I don’t like a lot of the federal polices, but I don’t think we have to become a bunch of warlords to rectify the problems, because we are starving.

From one windbag to another, have a good Christmas! Eh !!

[ivbinconned]

Strawboss, every point you raise I could spend much more time on but in the interest of keeping things brief….

Most of the concerns you raise exist in any case, in Canada, as it is now?? Protected is not a feeling I get from being part of the “big” country of Canada.

I believe you and Wilagrow have both expressed the view that unless an idea is widely accepted or supported it is to be considered without merit.
Let me tell you something that Mark Twain said: “Its name is public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles everything. Some think, it is the voice of God”

You can not deny that there has been Western discontent in this country long before present day voices have been heard. There is nothing new here. I just believe that instead of the West complaining forever, and until the end of time, perhaps we should exercise what muscle we can (like Ont. and Quebec) now, before rigormortis sets in. Saskatchewan may already be there. The Maritimes are there.

You said nothing about my comments about the triple E Senate. Tell me how we can get it, clearly, in detail, with out flexing some muscle, and I will never advocate separatism again. If it can be gained… I will then become a happy, loyal, proud Canadian.

Most of my productive life has been spent in Saskatchewan. Clearly, a different experience, than yours.

In 1999 when I grew that 90 bushels to the acre of feed barley then sold it for 1.65 ($148 gross per acre) only to find out that Quebec farmers where subsidized $120.00 per acre cash, over and above there crop, with Alberta money funneled through Ottawa. I get a little grumpy. And then to be told that I should be mad at the US and Europe for grain subsidies while in Canada we have this big sting operation underway….secretly!! Forgive me for being a windbag.
I am motivated. I have watched the value of my land drop in half in the past 15 years! This is disconcerting as one looks to the sunset years.
.
Speaking of windbags, the end of the vacuum hose is revenue Canada but the collection bag and power supply is in Ottawa.

And a very Merry Christmas to you too and to all those who you love. My kids are all coming home fom Alberta, but we promise to send them back to their jobs as good hard working productive members of your fine province.

Watch out for them will you. Its hard.... because they take the grand kids with them too. And they like us!!

[StrawBoss]

Ivbinconned

I don’t have all the answers, but fully agree that a Triple E Senate is the way to go.
The provincial Premiers will have to start working together (and I think they have started to gel) to combat the federal government arrogance.

The premiers should promote the EEE Senate and it will have to start with our provincial and federal elections, by the people putting the pressure on our politicians to make it a campaign issue.
I know we will always have a problem with Quebec, but again they ride a horse of a different color, also Ontario may stay as a schoolyard bully. If we get 8 or 9 premiers on side would be nice, but we need at least a majority of the provinces on side before it’s put on the feds table.
I am sure the people in the western provinces would easily be comvinced that an EEE Senate would be beneficial.
Alberta made the mistake of going alone by electing a senator and going directly to the feds without having support from the other provinces.

I think there is a bigger problem with the labour unions with their outrageous demands and militant tactics, which are starting to look like they will destroy the country, before provincial/ federal grievances are settled.

There was a need for unions at one time when the employer took advantage of the employees, now the table has tipped and the unionized labour lost most of their commonsense and greed took over.
Did you see the news yesterday where the labour unions tried to destroy the province of Quebec? Union mentality in action at it’s best.

I didn’t have time to really attack the EEE senate proposal, but may add more comments later.

[cowman]

Why would you blame the unions for all the countries woes? Consider the west coast ferry strikes? The company/government wants wage concessions so they can buy a bunch more ships! They want wage concessions so their top people can make outrageous salaries and bonuses!
How would you like to work at some hole like Walmart for$6.50/hr.? Oh, but Walmart doesn't make any money right? How come Safeway used to pay their cashiers $15/ hr. but today they pay $7?
I think the time has come when we need more unions, because I hate to tell you workers are being abused big time when they are getting paid $7/hr.! We pay our pensioners more than that little single Mom is making at Walmart or Safeway! I would be ashamed to offer anyone $7 for a job!
The doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, and teachers all have super strong unions. They call them "associations" so they don't have to identify with the poor peasants! But do people complain about them...No they complain if the guy sweeping the floor wants a starvation wage! We need some social justice in this country instead of the American crap we have adopted! Dog eat dog is a wonderful concept if you are the dog doing the eating!

[StrawBoss]

And a good morning to you—Cowman ! What side of the bed did you get out of this morning?
I wasn’t referring to the little moms working in stores and babysitting forming unions to get a livable wage.
I am talking about essential services like politicians, teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, police and a few other that are receiving a very good wage, but want more and work less and I don’t care if they call them unions or associations.
I remember when the west coast grain handlers--- floor sweepers were getting $22.00 per hour and wanted more and I was getting $3.00 a bushel for my wheat. That’s the kind of crap I am referring to.

[cakadu]

Cowman, I agree with you that it is shameful that people are earning such low wages - especially in this province. I don't know that having unions for them will get them any better wages in their pockets by the time you take off union dues etc.

Never having been in a union, but knowing lots of people who are, for the most part the unions have outlived their usefulness. When you see union leaders out there telling people to strike, it's not the leaders that will be taking a reduction in their oftentimes 6 figure salaries (think Buzz Hargrove (sp) of the auto workers union or the other powerful union leaders) while the real workers are out on the picket lines.

Sometimes I think it's the unions exploiting the workers in this day and age. Union dues go up and the services and bargaining that the union is supposed to be doing on your behalf isn't getting done.

Sadly, politics raises it's ugly head everywhere.

(As an aside, I've never understood striking solely for more pay - even with an increase you'll never make back the money that was lost while you were out on the picket line.)

[cowman]

The grain workers always seem to get a bad rap from farmers. I think it is frustration because farmers are powerless in the system, mostly due to their own inability to get "mobbed up" or in other words form an effective union. Why maybe if farmers had a real union they could get $100/bu. for their wheat! Of course they would have to control what came into this country and forget all about the export market. So I guess we could turn the prairies back into a buffalo pasture and grow the little bit of grain we need in Ontario. Maybe we could convince the Indians to go back to their traditional way of life hunting buffalo instead of running casinos?
Just about every group that is succesful has a "union" if you will. The power elite that runs this country has a "union". No outsiders allowed! You try to crash the "union" you find out real fast who really runs this country!
I would be more concerned with the billions companies like Bombardier and Power Corp. get from you and me, than if some working Joe got a few extra bucks from the marketplace.