Sustainability

[cakadu]

Did any of you happen to catch the show "Nature" on PBS this evening? It was on cattle and how they are treated around the globe. Of particular interest was how we have been producing our cattle for the last 50 years or so. Many years ago the relatively inexpensive energy costs enabled us to put more and more cattle (or poultry or pigs) into smaller and smaller areas because we could use machinery to feed them. Along with this confinement and primarily grain feeding to get cattle fat, we started to add antibiotics to the feed in order to curtail the potential disease problems from having so many animals confined to a small space and to combat "burning out their guts" because of high amounts of grain being fed. Cattle are bioreactors on 4 legs and they were always intended to go out and get their own food - namely forages - rather than eat grain.

The program went on to conclude that at some point in time, the rising energy costs and the increased reliance on antimicrobials in the feed will no longer be sustainable.

Have we reached that point now? I'm curious to know your views on this. Has our drive for economies of scale and trying to hang onto margin caused us to crash and burn?

[cowman]

The system we have in place has been developed because it is the most efficient(read that making money)one at the present time. And continues to be!
By feeding hard in a feedlot a calf can be on the plate by one year old. Tender, flavorful. I doubt we would want to go back to tough 3 year old grass beef?
I suspect things will have to change because of the growing anti-biotic/hormone problem? I believe that the practice of feeding anti-biotics should be banned? Of course what does this mean? The end of the modern hog barn, poultry barn, feedlot! Which I can't see happening because we couldn't meet our needs.
Consider what happens to a calf. He is pulled off momma when he is still a baby. Trucked to town, beat, yelled at and spends 24 hours bawling and walking. Then he is beat some more into a loud sales ring with a ton of strange people around. Then mixed up with a bunch of other calves and stands around bawling for several more hours. Then more yelling and beating onto a truck where he is crammed in with all these strange animals and rides for several more hours(in all kinds of weather) to a strange feedlot. There he is processed with great stress and put in a pen with more strangers. Probably never ate out of a bunk or drank out of a waterer. The question isn't will he get sick but how can he not get sick? The answer...massive and frequent anti-biotics!
The system is basically a very cruel one and I would think groups like PETA could have a field day with it if they weren't so damned dumb!
If cattle are handled properly and allowed to adapt to changes they don't need anti-biotics. I doubt I use a bottle of liquimiacin in three years and I use less all the time. I seldom feed any grain(unless the price is extremely right) and that eliminates about 90% of the feet problems. Good hay and lots of straw and a quiet herd make for healthy happy cattle, but then I don't own a feedlot.

[cakadu]

It begs the question, then doesn't it - do any of us need a feedlot. Right now the feedlots are crying foul and that they need help - without it they will go under.

How about all the cow/calf producers? What about them? If we were to just worry about our own domestic supply, would we need to produce beef in the numbers that we do?

In reality, we are not even in the ball park when it comes to the lowest cost producer in terms of beef. We have to feed for approximately 200 days per year - more in these past couple of years, which drives our costs of production way up - if some producers even know what their actual costs are. That takes us back to whether or not you are running a business or it is a lifestyle, but that is another debate in another thread.

As other countries come on line i.e. South America that can produce beef on grass year round as well as to the specifications of the importing country - no hormones or antibiotics - we are going to be even harder hit because we don't seem to want to move in that direction.

The way we are engaged in agriculture right now is not sustainable and we will be forced to look at things differently. I hope that the majority can survive the shift.

How has the system treated you thus far?

[grassfarmer]

cakadu, you raise a very good point here one that has caused me much thought in recent months. I am planning to move towards a "Salatin" style multi-facet operation involving other species and profit centres as well as cattle. Reading his works convinces me that the feedlot model of cattle production - to date unique to North America is a flawed model. The number of acres needing to be cropped in this variable climate, and the fuel oil burned to fatten one animal in a feedlot is outrageous. My history of grass management (certainly in an easier grass growing country) will hopefully allow me to succeed in this course.

The other part of the equation is that commodity beef is not providing a sustainable return to producers. With the multi-nationals domination of the food chain it looks unlikely that our lot will improve even without BSE, drought etc. I don't think too many people believe this reality yet because the multi-national's domination is a recent phenominum. (sp?)
The emerging health benefits of grass produced livestock are huge and could be our key to future survival.

[countryguy]

A few years back when grain farming was going through a real rough period I was contemplating getting back into the cattle business.At that time a course on holistic management was being offered in town so after alot of humming and hawing because I didn't know what it was I decided to take it.It was the best move I have ever made.

After taking the course I figured that holistic management was the way to go.I searched high and low across the country to find the type of cattle I was looking for;tough cattle that can survive and thrive on grass and grass alone.I found the cattle I was looking for and have been going full shoes ever since.

I have a ZERO grain policy with my animals.If an animal can't make it on what she is naturally supposed to eat she isn't going to be here.

Not usually being an optimist I do actually see that some good has come out of the bse crisis.It has really opened up peoples eyes as to what they are eating and how what they are eating is actually being produced.They also learned alot about the shoddy marketing practices(such as dying the meat or injecting it with chicken blood to keep it red)that the big retailers are using.What shocks me the most is that even people in small towns are now asking for naturally raised or grass fed beef;something I never thought would happen.People now know what they do not want in their food,and at the same time they know what they DO want in their food.

I feel that there is a whole new erra of beef production lurking in the horizon.I see tremendous oportunity ahead for people producing naturally raised beef and in the production of seedstock specializing in grass based beef production.

Substitute the word beef for what ever animal you are raising.If it's raised naturally the same applies and you are going to have a market for your product.

[cowman]

Now I'm no expert on grass fed beef. The only times I've tried it, it has been damned tough and not overly juicy or tasty!
I believe it could take quite a bit of aging to tenderize it?
In a modern meat situation the beef is killed one day, quick chilled and out the door to the breaking plant the next. By day three it is sitting on the meat shelf at Safeway. Big packing plants/breaking plants only have enough cooler space for about a days kill.
If Cargill has cooler space for 3000 head and that is their daily kill just think of the space required for a 14 day hanging? It would definitely add to the cost in a big way?

[Horse]

For the last 5 yr we have butured a buffalo and the poorest tasing one we have ate is a so called fattened animal all the rest were fed hay(slough at that as that is what they seem to prefer) . AS for grain fed beef I guess that is all we have ate except for the odd accident like broken leg or the odd fence jumper that did it at a bad time.
But if we are producing at a loss I guess the question is why. If we were all to stop using fert and grow 40 bu bly instead of 100 we could sell all we grow and less wear and tear on us and our equipt, use a lot less non renewable resources less wear on roads trucks ,so on and probably be better off

[Horse]

For the last 5 yr we have butured a buffalo and the poorest tasing one we have ate is a so called fattened animal all the rest were fed hay(slough at that as that is what they seem to prefer) . AS for grain fed beef I guess that is all we have ate except for the odd accident like broken leg or the odd fence jumper that did it at a bad time.
But if we are producing at a loss I guess the question is why. If we were all to stop using fert and grow 40 bu bly instead of 100 we could sell all we grow and less wear and tear on us and our equipt, use a lot less non renewable resources less wear on roads trucks ,so on and probably be better off

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, the usual comment that grassfed beef is tough will result from improper cooking. North America has a different way of cooking beef to the rest of the world - you want to cook it fast and hot. Most other parts of the world cook beef slower at lower temperatures. The moist heat of water or steam penetrates the meat twice as quickly as the dry heat of the oven or broiler at the same temperature. Crock pots or slow cookers will produce a better meat dish and if you insist on cooking fast the meat should be marinaded. I believe all beef should be hung for around 14 days.
Who cares if the big packers can't afford/ don't want to build bigger coolers to hang meat? I'm talking about trying to totally cut them out of my business as they do not believe that independant ranchers are deserving of a sustainable future.

[cakadu]

When you can differentiate your product - i.e. grown naturally - you want to maintain ownership of it and capture that value yourself as the producer and not give it further down the line. That is the biggest problem with the way the beef system is now - the "value" is captured further up the chain and the producer is left getting what he gets, which is not sustainable for him.

Thinking outside of the normal beef paradigm that currently exists means that you by-pass the system as much as possible. Brand your product, make it different from what is currently available and market what you have to offer. That is the future in this business of farming.

I agree with grassfarmer - when the meat is leaner, you cannot cook it the way we are used to cooking meat. Our lamb is much the same way - you can't cook it fast or you can ruin it.

Buffalo is another meat that you cannot overcook and it is easy to do because it is lean. Trust the person you buy the product from as chances are they have had plenty of experience cooking it themselves and know what works and what doesn't work.

[cowman]

While I do understand the desirability of aging the product and also that slower cooking can tenderize meat, I would point out that we live in a "fast" society that really doesn't want to spend the time? The trend seems to be for faster food not slower? The North American housewife wants something that will be ready "now" not six or seven hours from now? If it can't be zapped in the microwave in ten minutes then forget it? Or grilled on the barbque? Quite frankly modern men and women just don't have the time to spend it on food prep?
I suspect aging is a very expensive cost? Consider that Cargill would have to have cooler space for over 50,000 head if they aged them 14 days? Now at $200/sq. foot we are talking some big bucks? And consider the electricity costs? I wonder what kind of shelf life that 14 day old beef would have?
I'm not trying to say that grass beef couldn't work. It definitely could(and does) in a niche market, but I just wonder if it would make economic sense in our modern supermarket/packer system?

[grassfarmer]

cowman, that is the beauty of crock-pots
preperation time can be less than conventional methods plus you don't have to watch over the cooking process. Idea for modern working parents - put it on before they leave for work and it's ready when they come back.
As I said before who cares if Cargill can afford to do it - if enough of us can do it and sell to a niche market maybe they will have to get out of the slaughter business and crawl back under the stone they came from.

[cakadu]

Cowman - what I'm hearing from you is that you are caught "between two worlds". On the one hand you want to see the niche market business take off - i.e. organic, natural, grassfed - whatever you want to call it -- and the way the current meat system exists and it matters little whether you are talking beef, pork, chicken and even lamb to a lesser extent.

Grassfarmer is right - in that system, you don't want to sell to the Cargill's of the world or even end up in the massive supermarket chains for that matter because then you are dealing with exhobitant stocking fees every year.

Through the niche marketing, you provide customers with what they want every time at a price they are willing to pay you for, which includes you as the producer making money and not seeing it go to another entity further down the line.

You don't go head to head with the big boys, you differentiate yourself in the marketplace and stay far away from them. Because as a niche marketer you are smaller, you can make the necessary adjustments in the marketplace in a much more timely fashion than the bigger outfits could ever hope to do.

I also agree with you that we live in a fast food world and that some people look for quick solutions. I also know, however, that more and more families are looking to have that traditional meal time feel and that continues to rise in popularity.

No matter what you do, you can't please everyone - you just have to find that segment of society that will pay you for what you do. I also think that there is room for all in the system and that no one practice is far and away better than the other. It is what you as the producer are wiling to live with. Countryguy just may be on to something and I hope that the movement to take back what is rightfully ours as producers continues to grow. I don't want to see it return with another name or with a new set of clothes, but with a shift in attitude and the resulting benefits from utilizing the skills and resources that are out there.

[rodb]

Hi Cakadu

When I saw this thread my blood started to pump and then I read it and well here are my two bits worth.

Spent two weeks in California the begining of February at a conference, North American Farmers' Direct Marketing Association (www.nafdma.com) and then at the World Ag Expo. The pre conference tour we went on was dealing with Farmers Markets and it was a reminder of why they talk about California granola (a lot of fruits and nuts). The nuts seem to think that they are sustainable because they can grow crops on a continuous basis so that there is always something to eat. They have forgotten that most of the world has seasons and reasons that production is limited.

Organics and high prices seem to be the norm, but there is always a down side to everything. Most farmers markets are run by a full time manager and usually a couple more staff that in my impression and some of the farmer vendors as well, are leaches on the system. The farmers market managers seem to have taken on the cause of organics and small farms, promoting to chefs and their ilke. Not that this is all wrong but I think that the tail is wagging the dog in most cases.

One day we had the opportunity to go to one of Alice Waters (proponent of slow food movement)restaurants. It was a nice meal and we gratefully listened to her twenty minute lecture on her perception of the food system. She believes in seasonal vegetables and organic produce(but she dyes her hair). When we left we were told that if we had walked in off the street and made a reservation, 6 months to a year later we would have paid $100.00 US tax and tip for a meal that maybe had $7.00 worth of materials including the wine.

These people are misguided at best. How are we going to feed the 6-7 billion people of the world with an attitude like this. Yes, a certain portion of the population can afford or want to be able to afford this kind of food but if everyone was to go back to producing food organically, we would have to go back to a sixty hour work week like it was at the turn of the twentieth century. I am not a slave to the Chemical and Fertilizer companies but until some more work is done to improve alternative methods we will have to stick with what we are doing.

Cowman

Quite a few of our neighbours are selling their own beef. One neighbour is promoting it as natural. They are selling lean ground beef for $2.75/lb and are waiting to get some younger animals butchered so that they can sell some steaks and roasts. The one thing we learned down in the Excited States of America is that people want to relate to where and how the product was produced. We met a nice couple from Illinois who sold Piedmontese beef through farmers markets. They sold only Select grade beef and let their packer keep all the Choice and Premium grade animals. This was an eye opener, but they aged it all 21 days and so it was lean and had tenderness.I used to shopm at a store in Calgary that aged all its beef for 14 days. It was a far superior product to the Safeway stuff down the street. Sunterra now runs this store.
`
I have rambled long enough but there are ways to make money in a down market but it takes a lot of work and sometimes it just doesn't pay when you figure it out at the end of the day.

[cakadu]

Rod, you make some valid points which are very true. I don't see organic production as the ultimate and in fact have talked with people who will never pay the premiums for organic production. They want to buy local and will actually support local production, but will not pay anything extra for it - which I suspect is the case the majority of the time.

We can't all go back to organic production as we would need something in the neighborhood of millions of acres more land in order to do it and at the rate we are gobbling up agricultural land (particularly in our county) to satisfy the urban sprawl and the "rurbanite" this is entirely unachievable.

This is all about balance and finding something that will work for everyone. I don't foresee being able to keep adding more and more chemicals to an already depleted landscape in order to ask the soil to do more for us as something that is sustainable in the long term.

I think it will take a long hard look at what we can do profitably over the long term and it will likely take a dramatic shift in thinking. It may mean loosing more producers than we already have, although I shudder to think about how many farm sales we are going to see this spring.

It might not be able to change in the short term, but over the longer term it is almost a necessity.