Sustainability

[cowman]

While I do understand the desirability of aging the product and also that slower cooking can tenderize meat, I would point out that we live in a "fast" society that really doesn't want to spend the time? The trend seems to be for faster food not slower? The North American housewife wants something that will be ready "now" not six or seven hours from now? If it can't be zapped in the microwave in ten minutes then forget it? Or grilled on the barbque? Quite frankly modern men and women just don't have the time to spend it on food prep?
I suspect aging is a very expensive cost? Consider that Cargill would have to have cooler space for over 50,000 head if they aged them 14 days? Now at $200/sq. foot we are talking some big bucks? And consider the electricity costs? I wonder what kind of shelf life that 14 day old beef would have?
I'm not trying to say that grass beef couldn't work. It definitely could(and does) in a niche market, but I just wonder if it would make economic sense in our modern supermarket/packer system?

[grassfarmer]

cowman, that is the beauty of crock-pots
preperation time can be less than conventional methods plus you don't have to watch over the cooking process. Idea for modern working parents - put it on before they leave for work and it's ready when they come back.
As I said before who cares if Cargill can afford to do it - if enough of us can do it and sell to a niche market maybe they will have to get out of the slaughter business and crawl back under the stone they came from.

[cakadu]

Cowman - what I'm hearing from you is that you are caught "between two worlds". On the one hand you want to see the niche market business take off - i.e. organic, natural, grassfed - whatever you want to call it -- and the way the current meat system exists and it matters little whether you are talking beef, pork, chicken and even lamb to a lesser extent.

Grassfarmer is right - in that system, you don't want to sell to the Cargill's of the world or even end up in the massive supermarket chains for that matter because then you are dealing with exhobitant stocking fees every year.

Through the niche marketing, you provide customers with what they want every time at a price they are willing to pay you for, which includes you as the producer making money and not seeing it go to another entity further down the line.

You don't go head to head with the big boys, you differentiate yourself in the marketplace and stay far away from them. Because as a niche marketer you are smaller, you can make the necessary adjustments in the marketplace in a much more timely fashion than the bigger outfits could ever hope to do.

I also agree with you that we live in a fast food world and that some people look for quick solutions. I also know, however, that more and more families are looking to have that traditional meal time feel and that continues to rise in popularity.

No matter what you do, you can't please everyone - you just have to find that segment of society that will pay you for what you do. I also think that there is room for all in the system and that no one practice is far and away better than the other. It is what you as the producer are wiling to live with. Countryguy just may be on to something and I hope that the movement to take back what is rightfully ours as producers continues to grow. I don't want to see it return with another name or with a new set of clothes, but with a shift in attitude and the resulting benefits from utilizing the skills and resources that are out there.

[rodb]

Hi Cakadu

When I saw this thread my blood started to pump and then I read it and well here are my two bits worth.

Spent two weeks in California the begining of February at a conference, North American Farmers' Direct Marketing Association (www.nafdma.com) and then at the World Ag Expo. The pre conference tour we went on was dealing with Farmers Markets and it was a reminder of why they talk about California granola (a lot of fruits and nuts). The nuts seem to think that they are sustainable because they can grow crops on a continuous basis so that there is always something to eat. They have forgotten that most of the world has seasons and reasons that production is limited.

Organics and high prices seem to be the norm, but there is always a down side to everything. Most farmers markets are run by a full time manager and usually a couple more staff that in my impression and some of the farmer vendors as well, are leaches on the system. The farmers market managers seem to have taken on the cause of organics and small farms, promoting to chefs and their ilke. Not that this is all wrong but I think that the tail is wagging the dog in most cases.

One day we had the opportunity to go to one of Alice Waters (proponent of slow food movement)restaurants. It was a nice meal and we gratefully listened to her twenty minute lecture on her perception of the food system. She believes in seasonal vegetables and organic produce(but she dyes her hair). When we left we were told that if we had walked in off the street and made a reservation, 6 months to a year later we would have paid $100.00 US tax and tip for a meal that maybe had $7.00 worth of materials including the wine.

These people are misguided at best. How are we going to feed the 6-7 billion people of the world with an attitude like this. Yes, a certain portion of the population can afford or want to be able to afford this kind of food but if everyone was to go back to producing food organically, we would have to go back to a sixty hour work week like it was at the turn of the twentieth century. I am not a slave to the Chemical and Fertilizer companies but until some more work is done to improve alternative methods we will have to stick with what we are doing.

Cowman

Quite a few of our neighbours are selling their own beef. One neighbour is promoting it as natural. They are selling lean ground beef for $2.75/lb and are waiting to get some younger animals butchered so that they can sell some steaks and roasts. The one thing we learned down in the Excited States of America is that people want to relate to where and how the product was produced. We met a nice couple from Illinois who sold Piedmontese beef through farmers markets. They sold only Select grade beef and let their packer keep all the Choice and Premium grade animals. This was an eye opener, but they aged it all 21 days and so it was lean and had tenderness.I used to shopm at a store in Calgary that aged all its beef for 14 days. It was a far superior product to the Safeway stuff down the street. Sunterra now runs this store.
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I have rambled long enough but there are ways to make money in a down market but it takes a lot of work and sometimes it just doesn't pay when you figure it out at the end of the day.

[cakadu]

Rod, you make some valid points which are very true. I don't see organic production as the ultimate and in fact have talked with people who will never pay the premiums for organic production. They want to buy local and will actually support local production, but will not pay anything extra for it - which I suspect is the case the majority of the time.

We can't all go back to organic production as we would need something in the neighborhood of millions of acres more land in order to do it and at the rate we are gobbling up agricultural land (particularly in our county) to satisfy the urban sprawl and the "rurbanite" this is entirely unachievable.

This is all about balance and finding something that will work for everyone. I don't foresee being able to keep adding more and more chemicals to an already depleted landscape in order to ask the soil to do more for us as something that is sustainable in the long term.

I think it will take a long hard look at what we can do profitably over the long term and it will likely take a dramatic shift in thinking. It may mean loosing more producers than we already have, although I shudder to think about how many farm sales we are going to see this spring.

It might not be able to change in the short term, but over the longer term it is almost a necessity.

[rodb]

Linda

On Saturday Q91 reran Jim Fishers interview with Harvey Buckley. Harvey said that the US would be a net importer of food by 2017(?) and that we would be by 2050. This is scary but when you look at population increase and urban sprawl, if we don't change what and how we do things it is inevitable.

On a lighter note, The Red Neck from Red Deer stuck his foot in it lately by saying (in front of an organically sustainable crowd)"The only thing that the organic movement hasn't told everyone that half of us are going to have to quit eating to make it work". O' well off to burn another bridge.

[cowman]

Who's the Red Neck from Red Deer?
Now I'm no tree hugger enviro freak. I use fertilizer, when required, and I'll definitely use chemical sprays. Sometimes I think it is way over done though. Like why are we knocking ourselves out to maximize production when we have a hard time selling what we have at a profit?
I have seen some organic production that is astounding. Linda you know who I'm talking about...the organic veggie farmer north of Innisfail. The fertility of his soil can't be matched by chemicals. Now I do realize that having two thirds of the land in green manure crops would not be feasable without the high prices he gets for his organic production, but his crops are definitely impressive(even in a drought)?
There will always be a high end niche market and there will always be the regular market. It would be a good thing if farmers could limit the amount of chemicals they use, because eventually I suspect they could cause us a lot of grief?

[rodb]

Cowman

The Red Neck from Red Deer is a name thatI have been introduced by on several occassions.

Gerd Lund does run a good show but as you say having all that land in green manure plow down does eliminate a lot of edible production. Gerd also sits on some very high fertility land to begin with. Not all land is of that quality.

There is a gal at Lethbridge research centre who is working on natural relationships of plants,soils and other soil organisms. Hopefully something will come from her research.

When it comes to wheat, we are definitely producing two much Hard Red Spring compared to the world demand but thats for another CWB thread.
Rod

[countryguy]

I don't think green manure is the only way to build soil fertility is it?Seed the land to pasture and get these animals that are in the feedlots crapping in one place back out on the land improving it.Kills 2 birds with one stone does it not?Improves the land while at the same time taking wheat acres that aren't needed out of production.

Saying yields can't be equal with organic production compared to normal production is a myth.All it takes is an open mind and a little effort.I personally know of a guy doing it with a cropping system like I mentioned above and if he can do it,so can everyone else.Problem is nobody wants to get off their booty and try it.

[magpie]

Countryguy That’s interesting , may I ask how long he keeps this land in pasture before turning it under to get those comparable yields? How long will he crop this before going back to pasture? Will not phosphate be a limited factor?