Vaccines WTF

[jazz]

Jazz:
Canada does not have, nor have ever had vaccine production facilities capable of mass producing mRNA vaccines. Would you have supported a Trudeau call for building such facilities before the pandemic and before the development of mRNA vaccines?

Who says it has to be a mRNA vaccine? That Saskatoon company was highlighting their abilities way back in the summer. Trudeau never even bothered to get out of his cottage to talk to them.

The director of that company is saying their profile is safer and more likely to handle the variants. These guys went to trial with zero federal support. Now its going to take them 2 yrs to get through phase 1 trials.

You keep forgetting the astronomical sums of money spent.

As well, we should bloody well keep these facilities going and not let them run away. It’s a matter of national security.

Big pharma isnt located in Canada because they despise our socialized health care model.

[WiltonRanch]

Who’d of thunk it Montreal. (Sarcasm) It’ll be built underground, where all the action is.

The VIDO Intervac one being built in Saskatoon is the one I’m referring to more so. I could give fork about anything Quebec cause you it is a given they benefit first. So anything we can get out west, especially sask, should be applauded. It is a boon we have the synchrotron at the UofS. Many don’t realize the advantage we have for R&D with that machine here in bf sask.

[dmlfarmer]

Who says it has to be a mRNA vaccine? That Saskatoon company was highlighting their abilities way back in the summer. Trudeau never even bothered to get out of his cottage to talk to them.

The director of that company is saying their profile is safer and more likely to handle the variants. These guys went to trial with zero federal support. Now its going to take them 2 yrs to get through phase 1 trials.

You keep forgetting the astronomical sums of money spent.

And you keep ignoring my question of how much more should Canada have spent? Should Canada have funded every tom dick and harry who thought they could create a vaccine regardless if they have never developed vaccines before? You ignore the fact Canada prepurchased 1 billion dollars worth of vaccines from 7 companies and those companies use 4 different methods of creating the vaccine. That is enough vaccine to vaccinate 5 times the population of Canada if all vaccines are approved ? How much more should Canada have prepurchased and from how many more companies in your opinion?

Interesting that the first two vaccines approved for use in NA were mRNA vaccines and Canada order large number of doses of each

So tell us, Jazz, what would you have done differently if you were the PM. How much more would you have invested in vaccine creation than was? How many doses would you have ordered and from which companies and which mode of action before knowing if any vaccine would be successful? And given Canada had lost all vaccine production facilities, and that it takes at least a year to build a sizeable plant, and that a plant has to be tailored to the type of vaccine by mode of action, when would you have started construction? U of S, U of A, U of M, University of Waterloo, Western University, Entos, Immunoprecise Antibodies, Medipledge, IMV, Vido-Intervac, Synevivo, and Providence The****utics to name a few are all working on vaccines. Do you think they should all have received full funding of research? How would you choose who and how much get funding?

Real easy to second guess and criticize now but what would you have done differently

[jazz]

Real easy to second guess and criticize now but what would you have done differently

yeah it is easy dml, if you open your eyes. Trudeau fd around with the chinese for 4 months before he started looking to allies programs and now a year later domestically.

How about some simple math. You mention 7 institutions with vaccine research, $480B spent minus $7B to those entities easily funds all those programs. Canada spent literally nothing on our own vaccine development instead waiting for our globalist friends to bail us out. Where are they now?

[LEP]

The Lieberals sure are trying to keep the vaccine contracts under wraps. DML you realize AstraZeneca offered their vaccine for cost early on. Other countries took them up on it.

Canada didn't.

[TOM4CWB]

The Lieberals sure are trying to keep the vaccine contracts under wraps. DML you realize AstraZeneca offered their vaccine for cost early on. Other countries took them up on it.

Canada didn't.

Just watching a Satelite RDTV program on Covid-19

Was a town in Brazil that had heard immunity that a variant broke through... the present Vaccines do not work on it.

This is a long way from over, US death rates still not coming down significantly...

Wow;
Lock down for a long summer... if Covid breaks through herd immunity that quickly...

Cheers!

[dmlfarmer]

The Lieberals sure are trying to keep the vaccine contracts under wraps. DML you realize AstraZeneca offered their vaccine for cost early on. Other countries took them up on it.

Canada didn't.

Canada placed an order fo 20 million doses with Astra Zeneca on Sept 25th! Regardless, the A-Z vaccine is not yet approved for use in Canada so would not have got any of this vaccine to this point anyway.

Ottawa announced agreements with Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech on Aug. 5; with Novavax and Janssen, a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson, on Aug. 31; with Sanofi/GSK on Sept. 22; with AstraZeneca, which is manufacturing a vaccine developed at the University of Oxford, on Sept. 25; and with Medicago on Oct. 23.

Canada will receive 20 million to 76 million doses of each vaccine, should any of them successfully make it through clinical trials and be approved by Health Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccines-canada-profiles-1.5708240 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccines-canada-profiles-1.5708240

For the 3 vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna, and Astra Zeneca approved in the western world, Canada has pre ordered more per population than any other country in the world. 127% https://qz.com/1937072/the-countries-that-have-already-ordered-enough-covid-19-vaccines/ https://qz.com/1937072/the-countries-that-have-already-ordered-enough-covid-19-vaccines/

[shtferbrains]

I'm not following you here DML.
Your saying we have more vaccine per capita bought and paid for but are not getting any vaccine?

Is that good?

[LEP]

The point being dml that the vaccine was offered for us to produce. UK, US and several EU countries have been using it.

We could have been put a facility in place to develop it. It's kind of interesting how every country has to approve it. Can't trust another country's regulatory body's decisions.

[dmlfarmer]

I'm not following you here DML.
Your saying we have more vaccine per capita bought and paid for but are not getting any vaccine?

Is that good?

Last summer, when Canada placed orders for vaccines, there was no assurances that any of the 150 plus vaccines globally that were under development would be effective, safe, or when testing would be completed and available for use in Canada. So Canada ordered 350 million doses of 7 different vaccines that were developed using 4 different methods. This increased the chances Canada would get at least one effective vaccine as soon as possible. As it turned out, the first three vaccines available in much of the western world were ones ordered by Canada (Pfizer, Moderna, Astra Zeneca (not yet approved in Canada). So even if no other vaccine is ordered, Canada has already ordered enough of these 3 to administer to all Canadians.

The problem is there are 7 billion people in the world so demand far outstrips supply. Right now the world can produce just under 3 billion doses per year. As well, other countries have also ordered more than they need increasing the pressure on meeting demand.

Next problem is Canada has no major vaccine production facilities anymore. As I pointed out earlier, 6 companies, including Astra Zeneca left Canada between 2007-11 so we are depending on supply from other countries who want to vaccinate their people as badly as we do. And even though we have contracts with companies, those companies are at the mercy of the countries where production facilities are.

As well, we have no idea of the delivery schedule in the contracts as they have not been made public. If Canada gets enough vaccine for every Canadian by end of Sept as we are still being told, that will be a remarkable achievement given it will take 3-4 years at least to produce enough vaccine for the world at todays production rate.

Is it good - NO! Neither was not having enough PPE when Covid was first spotted. But that is what happens when people/countries are not prepared for a pandemic. But the fact is demand for a vaccine simply outstrips production capacity and it will for a long time so there will be a shortage and to blame this supply shortage which is felt globally totally on Trudeau is simply playing politics over a life and death matter. So I will ask you too, what would you have done differently last summer if you were PM?

Lots of complaining last spring and summer about amount Canada was spending on unproven vaccines yet now they are here people are complaining we should have spent more on more companies and more rapid delivery. Easy to armchair quarterback after the game is over.

[dmlfarmer]

Here is another thought to ponder. We know every time a virus infects someone there is a risk of mutation. We also know that it will take a number of years to vaccinate everyone in the world. So what should the vaccination plan be? Do we focus vaccinations on those most exposed (health care workers) Do we vaccinate the most at risk? (old) Do we vaccinate those living in conditions where the spread is most likely (poor urban areas with high population density? Covid does not respect borders so is it wise to try to vaccinate everyone in Canada before say Mexico or the Caribbean where many Canadians travel to and risk virus mutations arising in Mexico/Caribbean that could prove resistant to the vaccinations that Canadians received? Or do we focus on getting every Canadian vaccinated and keep a travel ban to everywhere else in the world in place for years until they to get vaccinated and hope it does not mutate?

Put in farming terms, lets say clubroot hits with a vengeance across Canada this summer. There will not be enough clubroot resistant seed for 2022. So should all clubroot seed go to the worst hit areas in 2021? Or should everyone have a shot at some? If you can only get it for a third of your acres how do you decide where to seed it? Best land? wettest fields? Where it was most noticeable in 2021? Or should it go to the farmers who ordered it first, or bid the most for it regardless if they even had any clubroot in 2021? Or what should be done about your neighbor who lost 1/3 of his crop to clubroot and still refuses to seed a clubroot resistant variety because it costs more and will be seeding canola on canola thereby putting your farm at even greater risk - should he be forced to a better rotation and to have to use a resistant variety? I guarantee, if clubroot would hit hard in 2021, in 2022 there would still be guys who do not take the time to knock the dirt off the drill before leaving a field even though it is a good practice to prevent the spread of clubroot, just like there are those who refuse to wear a mask or social distance to slow the spread of Covid.

Instead of blaming government for factors beyond our control, how about providing government with direction as to where we go from here.

[jazz]

dml, why do you have to complicate everything with endless analogies that arent even grounded in reality.

Reality 1; this govt fd up the vaccine orders. Doesnt matter if they put an order in for a trillion doses, half those companies dont have a viable vaccine yet, a bunch still waiting for approvals and the other half are hoarding it in their own countries first.

Reality 2: which ever vaccine you want to bet on, none will be widely administered to this country before the end of this year, more likely next yr.

That plant in Montreal is just under construction. It wont be constructed until the early fall or next winter, then it needs to ramp up production, you are looking at summer 2022 before it starts its program. Trudeau could have retooled an existing pharma facility and been producing vaccine by may. Nope that doesnt give enough graft to Quebec.

That is beyond an absolute fail when the rest of the world will be vaccinated by mid summer 2021.

What is to be gained by being obtuse? Stop deflecting and call it out.

[dmlfarmer]

dml, why do you have to complicate everything with endless analogies that arent even grounded in reality.

Reality 1; this govt fd up the vaccine orders. Doesnt matter if they put an order in for a trillion doses, half those companies dont have a viable vaccine yet, a bunch still waiting for approvals and the other half are hoarding it in their own countries first.

Reality 2: which ever vaccine you want to bet on, none will be widely administered to this country before the end of this year, more likely next yr.

That plant in Montreal is just under construction. It wont be constructed until the early fall or next winter, then it needs to ramp up production, you are looking at summer 2022 before it starts its program. Trudeau could have retooled an existing pharma facility and been producing vaccine by may. Nope that doesnt give enough graft to Quebec.

That is beyond an absolute fail when the rest of the world will be vaccinated by mid summer 2021.

What is to be gained by being obtuse? Stop deflecting and call it out.

Jazz, Reality 1: Canada has already on order enough Pfizer, Moderna, and Astra Zenca vaccine to vaccinate all Canadians. It is just a matter of when it is delivered. Projects are still for all delivery in 2021.

Reality 2. Only true if you are talking about Canadian developed vaccines. Already have deliveries of Pfizer and Moderna in Canada

And to claim the rest of the world will be vaccinated by mid summer is pure BS. Most countries have not had any deliveries yet.

May I remind you that in August when Canada was ordering and funding the vaccination facility in Montreal you were still claiming Covid was a hoax would be gone after the election. Hell you were so sure you were right you pledged to leave this forum if Covid was still in the news Jan 1 yet here you are chastising Canada for the poor job so forgive me if I don't believe your claim that Canada has failed.

[Guest]

I'm not following you here DML.
Your saying we have more vaccine per capita bought and paid for but are not getting any vaccine?

Is that good?

Looks weird in print , no ?

[shtferbrains]

What percetage of Canadians do you expect to see line up to get vaccinate?
Do you think they can incentivise in some way by push or pull to get workable numbers?
If we are still vaccinating for a virus that has been around for 30+ months and have vaccine arriving at that time for another 100 million people will it go to the dump with the masks they dumped in the early stages?