For Dml

[AlbertaFarmer5]

dml, as usual, I appreciate your typically level headed well researched responses.

And as usual, I don't have to agree with everything you say, to respect your opinion.

In fact, I quite appreciate that we have different perspectives, I learn a lot more discussing with someone I disagree with, than I ever could just patting eachother on the back for all agreeing with each other.
It forces me to question my position, and my sources, and do further research, and make certain my position is defendable, and that I don't contradict myself.

I agree with most everything you stated in the above Covid post. the stats I see indicate that the vaccine ( at least until recently) has been very effective at keeping people out of the hospital, and keeping them from the most serious outcomes. While becomine increasinly useless, if not even beyond useless at stopping the spread, or preventing them from contracting Covid.
And I am fine with that, given the short notice, it is amazing that we could come up with a tool that bought us that much time, and saved that many lives, and more or less kept our hospital system from breaking down. I expect that the current trend will hold, and the anecdotal, but statistically insignificant adverse effects will be minor compared to the benefits.

What it doesn't do is justify the wide open policy for vaccinated people, nor the arbitrary restrictions on unvaccinated. Given the data about spread by vaccinated people.

It doesn't get us any closer to an end to the pandemic. Herd immunity now proving to be an impossible goal, either through vaccines, or contracting Covid( although there is certainly conflicting data on this).

Unfortunately, the vaccine was sold to the populace as something that it clearly couldn't deliver on. I doubt that was malicious, or intentional, but it reflects badly on those in positions of authority that they won't back down from that stance inspite of overwhelming evidence. I can understand how this broken trust is breeding conspiracies, and even more lack of trust in authorities.

I hope you will keep posting, on this, and other topics. The message has a lot more merit coming from you, than from a few of the other yahoo's who were making a career of making pro vaccine posts full of insults, and lacking in facts.
Although, I must admit, I'm not much of a fan of poetry.

[jazz]

Omicron was humanity's chance to get naturally vaccinated with an milder attenuated version of covid, but it appears we are going to hide from that too and prolong this even more.

Boosters wont work against this and millions of people got played again.

I mean how many times can you get played like that before you stand up and ask questions.

As far as the vaccines reducing serious outcomes, there is no evidence of that. Since cases can be very mild or asymptomatic we have no idea if these would have progressed to something worse with or without the vaccines.

If the immunity wanes in a few short months there is strong reason to believe it was fleeting to begin with. Basically a society wide placebo.

[dmlfarmer]

Af5, thanks for the comments. I once posted that I think you and I could have a great debate and I have no doubt that we would both learn from each other and both be better for it.

I only post for one of three reasons: 1. I have knowledge, or an opinion to share which has not already been made. If a point has been well made, I will not waste my time or others farmer's time by saying the same thing over again. 2. I will challenge posters who are using flawed data, information, or outright BS to make a point. I will only do this if I know and have proof that the information they are posting is wrong and will provide a link to that proof in my rebuttal to them. 3 If I am addressed or questioned directly. So no promises that I will continue on this site, especially if it continues to degrade to cat fighting and personal attacks ( which is what my stupid poem tried to point out and which I justify under my first reason for posting.)

Now under reason 3, here is my response to points you made. "the vaccine was sold to the populace as something that it clearly couldn't deliver on" I am not sure if vaccines were oversold as much as it was the case of people hearing what they wanted to hear. Never has any pharma or goverenment claimed their vax was 100% effective. Best case data shows low 90% effective when introduced and some like the JandJ and AZ was much lower. It was everyday people who heard vaccine and decided they were bullet proof. Even at 90% effective, if every Canadian were vaccinated with the best vaccine available, there would still be nearly 4 million Canadians at risk to break through infection. And that is before vaccine effectiveness is reduced by mutation as respiratory viruses are known to do. There are over 60 mututaions of the common season flu now hence seasonal flu vaccines must be adjusted an bossted annually. The good news is if you still get Covid after a vax, data shows the disease is less severe, and risk of both hospitalization and death is reduced.

It doesn't get us any closer to an end to the pandemic. Herd immunity now proving to be an impossible goal, . I agree that herd immunity is impossible. I have stated a number of times that this disease will be with us forever just as the Spanish flu is still here. But because our genes now carry the "memory" of the Spanish flu it is no longer the deadly disease it was before man was first exposed. I think the same thing will happen with Covid once every person has been exposed to the disease through either contraction or vaccine that that mimics the disease in the body.

Finally, re lockdowns - mandates. From day one I have said the purpose of any and all actions taken by governements has been to protect the health care systems. And that continues to be the case. As long as there is a significant portion of the population who have never had any exposure to the disease, there will be a threat to the health care system. If even just 15% of Canadians have not had the disease and refuse the vax, at 4% hospitalization rates that still means the health care system must expect about a quarter million potentially requiring extended ICU care someday. That is an overwhelming number.

[jazz]

Sask set up a 100 person field hospital twice and took it down twice without every seeing a single patient.

So I am a little skeptical about the claim health care was overrun. More like mismanaged.

Even Biden came out with a whopper yesterday saying the vaxxed can gather safely while everyone else is good as dead.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

"the vaccine was sold to the populace as something that it clearly couldn't deliver on"[/I] I am not sure if vaccines were oversold as much as it was the case of people hearing what they wanted to hear. Never has any pharma or goverenment claimed their vax was 100% effective. Best case data shows low 90% effective when introduced and some like the JandJ and AZ was much lower. It was everyday people who heard vaccine and decided they were bullet proof. Even at 90% effective, if every Canadian were vaccinated with the best vaccine available, there would still be nearly 4 million Canadians at risk to break through infection. And that is before vaccine effectiveness is reduced by mutation as respiratory viruses are known to do. There are over 60 mututaions of the common season flu now hence seasonal flu vaccines must be adjusted an bossted annually. The good news is if you still get Covid after a vax, data shows the disease is less severe, and risk of both hospitalization and death is reduced.

Perhaps it was never explicitly stated. But by repeatedly stating/mandating that fully vaccinated are free to go virtually anywhere almost without restrictions, while unvaccinated, are increasingly restricted, it certainly gave the impression that they were bullet proof, and the only thing they had to fear was unvaccinated. At least people I know certainly used that logic to justify their actions, and lack of precautions once vaccinated.
Personally, having dealth with cattle vaccines forever, I have no expectations that a vaccine should be 100% effective, or have no side effects, or be once and done forever. However, earlier on, many reliable sources were claiming zero side effects, downplaying any notion that one could be infected, or infectious once vaccinated. I saw nothing from official sources contradicting this. Maybe I am unique, but I would rather be told the brutal truth, than kept in the dark and molly coddled with reassuring half truths.

As for your last claim about vaccinated having less severe outcomes, that absolutely has been true in the past, but the trends I am seeing in the data indicate that the gap is quickly closing, if not already closed. It bought us a lot of time to figure out a more permanent solution. Instead of using that time wisely, we spent it blaming anyone who isn't vaccinated, while sticking our collective heads in the sand as to the predictable failing efficacy of the vaccines.

And given all of the above, and the unknowable ( no need for speculation, we have no possible way of knowing the long term side effects( if any) of anything without long term studies), it is ridiculous to insist on vaccinating the young healthy people who are at virtually no statistical risk of tieing up hospital beds, if the vaccine also doesn't keep them from being spreaders. Save the doses, and keep boosting the elderly and immune compromised, even if it only gains a few weeks of protection from severe symptoms.