Soverignty Acts

[jazz]

Amen.

Totally makes sense. We will take our quadrillion in resources and head for the exits.

Let’s dispel this Quebec carbon tax stuff. Quebec takes equalization money from AB to buy carbon credits from California. End of story. Even their hydro dams we paid for couldn’t keep them out of the crosshairs so they had to go outside the country and join a scam in California which can’t be audited. AB equalization supporting true commies.

[blackpowder]

Edit: I honestly feel there is no good solution for Alberta to feel better within the bounds of the Federation of Canada and Alberta being a Province of Canada.

I would like to think you're wrong.
Is Quebec ever happy? I don't know.
A lawyer will tell you that if no one is satisfied the judgement likely fair.

Rex Murphy not wrong. If everyone in the East unhappy with Danielle Smith, she might be doing something right.
No one here complained when Ralph bought one way bus tickets.

[GALAXIE500]

Oh it will work for what is wanted - that is the problem.

2 big errors however.

1. Supreme Court already ruled separation is unconstitutional and breaks international law. There is no right for a Province to secede from Canada. And don't point to the Clarity Act like the uninformed do.

2. Canada is a Federation since 1867 when the 3 countries united, not a confederate association of sovereign states. You should have learned that in Junior High.

Do your homework.

Question:

Since when are we in a confederation when Quebec ******* and complains , and stomps their feet continuously to get preferential treatment ? The Govt has been kissing their asses for decades , and what does the rest of the country get?

If Quebec isn't a perfect example of a province that has succeeded from Canada , then i don't know what is!

[Landdownunder]

ventured here to rural issues for a look hmmm 4 pages this must be interesting.

what a interesting intelligent rational discussion by most participants well done tweety blackpowder ab5 and others

can of worms.

not the same but similar a great state in australia, west australia economic power house in many ways has sort of similar issues to west Canada carries burden of many royalty and gst payments to east of Aust.

[WiltonRanch]

Everyone mentions Quebec sucking up equalization but what about the maritimes? They’re a true black hole. Crashing demographics, stagnant economies, and crushing debt. Newfoundland with its vast oil reserves flat as piss on a plate because of boondoggles like Muskrat Falls which is tied up with Power Corp if I’m not mistaken. Long term no hope for them to be have provinces unless a bunch of young people come in and shake things up. Instead their young come west to work. This is the reality this country faces with everyone new wanting to live in southern Ontario when really they need to settle across the whole country in equal proportions but it won’t happen as that will erode the liberals power base.

[blackpowder]

Hmmm, yes to the first. No to the second.
When you artificially manage population movement with wealth transfers, you create an unnatural, unsustainable system.
Newfoundland's greatest support came from free movement to where the money was, Ft McMurray, and it's greatest downfall was excessive EI qualifiers, (wealth transfer). Tax supported ghettos.

[jazz]

[jazz]

Wilton, I am reading that a lot of Maritimers are trying to return to AB. These guys all bailed on the patch in 2012-14 and went home and gave us Trudeau.

Lots of GTAers dumping houses and moving to Calgary. Saw lots Ontario and Quebec plates this past summer

Smith better strike fast.

Dont forget our neighbor Manitoba takes $2.5B every year too.

[tweety]

Edit: I honestly feel there is no good solution for Alberta to feel better within the bounds of the Federation of Canada and Alberta being a Province of Canada.

I would like to think you're wrong.
Is Quebec ever happy? I don't know.
A lawyer will tell you that if no one is satisfied the judgement likely fair.

Rex Murphy not wrong. If everyone in the East unhappy with Danielle Smith, she might be doing something right.
No one here complained when Ralph bought one way bus tickets.

Between you and me Rex is looking to cash in on speaking fees. And he will say exactly what you want to hear.

[tweety]

Question:

Since when are we in a confederation when Quebec ******* and complains , and stomps their feet continuously to get preferential treatment ? The Govt has been kissing their asses for decades , and what does the rest of the country get?

If Quebec isn't a perfect example of a province that has succeeded from Canada , then i don't know what is!

It was good of Quebec to push to the Supreme Court for an answer on separation. Solid answer No.

In 1986, Saskatchewan used the clause to protect back-to-work legislation and Quebec used it again in 1988 to protect residents and businesses using French-only signs. Alberta tried to use the clause in a 2000 bill limiting marriage to a man and a woman, but that failed because marriage was ruled a federal jurisdiction. And you wonder why Alberta has problems.

2021 election finances Act in Ontario, June Quebec on language laws made tougher, as usual. Quebec Bill 21 for the religious symbols - which is absolutely puzzling as the charter protects minority rights - so how on earth did that one stay? Who could be more minor.

Sask used again for the public/Catholic school funding. And Ford has been using it a lot lately. Teachers strike etc.

Quebec gets things i think because the are smart enough to not ask for too much but just under the strain limit, and no I'm not saying they are not getting special treatment - or at least the appearance of it.

this was asked of Hamloc earlier, but Quebec and the Carbon Payment, now i haven't done the math, but they do not get Federal Payments either. It is quite hard to do an apples to apples comparison. The headlines though just piss everyone off, but don't tell the whole story either.

Quebec is really good at the game, Alberta could learn a few things from them.

[Guest]

Well for me it’s quite simple
If one province collects stabilization every year since inception, and lots I might add, one does not have to wonder if there is special treatment

[tweety]

Well for me it’s quite simple
If one province collects stabilization every year since inception, and lots I might add, one does not have to wonder if there is special treatment

Food for thought: It isn't just a Quebec problem as much as you would like it to be. Highlights shamelessly extracted from the Fraser Institute papers.

In current dollars, Prince Edward Island received the most equalization dollars, at $2,229 per person on average in each of the last eight years.

Among the other five provinces that normally receive equalization payments New Brunswick, Nova Scotia , Manitoba, Quebec, and Newfoundland & Labrador (which received equalization payments until 2008 and received offshore accord payments until 2012) Quebec received the least per capita at $933 annually, averaged over those eight years.

On the other side of the equalization divide, Ontario still counts as a 'have' province for my purposes despite its recent status as an equalization recipient. That is because it received an annual average of just $63 per person in equalization money since 2005/06. So it is much closer to a 'have' province most years. Meanwhile, Saskatchewan's equalization take was $41 per person, while the figure was $31 for British Columbia (Alberta received nil).

Government program spending in Atlantic Canada ranges between 21 per cent (Newfoundland) and 29 per cent (PEI) of the economy. That compares to a range of just 13 per cent (Alberta) to 17 per cent (Ontario) of GDP in the have provinces.

Overall, out of 19 categories which account for two-thirds of provincial program spending, it turns out the six have-not provinces have an 'advantage' in 13 categories. For example, if you live in a have-not province, you are likely to have cheaper average university tuition: $2,774 in Quebec and $3,729 in Manitoba. That compares to tuition in British Columbia at $5,015, Alberta at $5,883, Saskatchewan at $6,017 and Ontario at $7,180.

Have-not provinces also have many more government sector employees at the provincial level. For example, Manitoba and Quebec have 30 per cent and 15 per cent more such employees per 1,000 people when compared with Alberta. Have-nots also have more nurses and doctors, hospital beds, and CT scanners per capita when compared to 'have' provinces.

The advantages in have-not provinces are helped along by federal tax collections in richer provinces where residents see less of such taxpayer-financed cornucopia, for good or ill. Thus, B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario possess the advantage in just three categories (three measurements ended up neutral).

Funding for Equalization comes from federal taxes and goes directly to provincial governments calculated to be below average in “fiscal capacity.” Albertans’ higher per capita tax payments mean they have been making a net contribution of $15-27 billion annually – over $3 billion of that goes towards the $20 billion Equalization program. This is entirely a “net” contribution since Alberta receives no payments.

What is less obvious is that Albertans have been making a similarly large net contribution to federal-provincial transfers through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT) and Canada Social Transfer (CST). They pay in about $9 billion (based on their 16-17% share of tax revenues) but only get roughly $6 billion back (based on their 11.5% share of population). When this $3 billion net contribution is combined with the Equalization contribution, that is more than $6 billion from Albertans’ federal taxes going directly to other provincial governments to fund their provincial services.

Put another way, Albertans in recent years have had about $6000 per family of four sent from Ottawa – annually – to other provincial governments to fund health and social services through CHT, CST, and Equalization alone.

This $6 billion figure is only one part of the larger $15-27 billion per annum total net transfer from Albertans to the rest of the country.

Ontario became a have not province in 2009 and immediately the federal government imposed a cap on the growth of equalization payouts. So the thing that equalization was supposed to do isn't.

There are so many problems.

Edit: This is from 2019 back as during Covid everything was screwed up so much - even Alberta made a bit of coin in like 20 or 21 can't remember but one of those. First time ever - but maybe not even with CHT etc.

[tweety]

For reference here is the total taxes collected annually fed/prov.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/485455/income-taxes-paid-in-canada-by-type/

Also,

[chuckChuck]

The mineral resource rich provinces have more fiscal capacity to raise revenues than most of the smaller provinces and Quebec.

Saskatchewan was at one time a have not province as well and received equalization. Manitoba still does.

The goal of equalization is to ensure that all Canadian provinces have the ability to deliver similar levels of programs so that the poorer provinces don't fall into an irreversible decline and fail to deliver similar levels of health care and education along with other social programs and services.

Since all provinces pay the same rate of federal tax and equalization is a federal program it is up to at least 7 provinces and the federal government to change it. Harper had his chance to make a case but only tweaked it.

I am not sure why the richest provinces think they are so hard done by because they have more GDP per capita and pay more federal tax.

Its like the rich neighbors who complain that they pay too much tax. Nobody feels sorry for those who are richer!

And resource rich provinces have every advantage when it comes to collecting more revenue if they want too. Instead they let a publically owned resource go for some of the lowest royalties in the world with little savings for the future.

Even Alaska does a better job and Norway sets the standard for fiscal prudence when it comes to managing one time resource revenue.

[Guest]

manitoba still does because their hydro sees aren't counted same as quebec
why is that ?