Rationing Health Care

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Do you extend this rationale to other industries where public and private are both competing for staff and resources?
For example, road construction. The government would be the largest player in this industry, and some levels of government do have their own equipment and perform their own work. But most is performed with private for profit contractors, who compete amongst each other to perform the work at the lowest cost, but they are competing for the same skilled staff and resources as the public works.
But competing with those government projects are also private road building projects such as exist in the logging, energy, recreationand mining industries. By your logic, they are competing for the same limited resources and staff as the government projects.
This seems to be the exact same situation as exists in public health care and the parallel private system.
Does the same solution apply?

[chuckChuck]

Do you extend this rationale to other industries where public and private are both competing for staff and resources?
For example, road construction. The government would be the largest player in this industry, and some levels of government do have their own equipment and perform their own work. But most is performed with private for profit contractors, who compete amongst each other to perform the work at the lowest cost, but they are competing for the same skilled staff and resources as the public works.
But competing with those government projects are also private road building projects such as exist in the logging, energy, recreationand mining industries. By your logic, they are competing for the same limited resources and staff as the government projects.
This seems to be the exact same situation as exists in public health care and the parallel private system.
Does the same solution apply?

Typically road building contractors submit competing tenders so that local and provincial governments can choose the lowest price tender that meets their contract requirement.

One of the articles I posted talks about governments who are reluctant to even release the details of the contracts they have with existing private health care providers.

Were the contracts publicly tendered in a competitive process? Doesn't sound like it.

So how do we know if there was even a competition?

And how can we compare whether the private or public system is lower cost without that information?

So the analogy with road building doesn't fit.

So if it is cheaper why isn't the private clinic and government releasing that information? Read below from the article:

"For example, data obtained from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) shows that knee replacement surgery in a public hospital, paid by the province, costs about $10,000. The same surgery in a private clinic can reportedly cost patients up to $28,000.

When the province pays for the knee replacement surgery in a for-profit clinic, the amount is kept secret, due to confidentiality agreements.

Andrew Longhust, a health policy researcher at Simon Fraser University in B.C., says the lack of transparency makes it challenging to understand the real costs.

"Governments are often reluctant or will actively fight the disclosure of that information and so will the clinics themselves," he said. Clinics, Longhurst added, often provide contracts with unspecific additional costs that are not easily visible or broken down, so the profit margin remains a mystery to patients and taxpayers.

[chuckChuck]

So A5 if you were paying for the knee surgery would you rather pay $10,000 in the public system or up to $28,000 in a private clinic all things being equal?

Let us know whether you would still prefer the private clinic? Maybe they will give you a deal on a hip and a knee for 20% off? Or throwin some extra surgery during a slow week? Nothing like the profit motive to upsell you something you don't really need! LOL

In the public system they just want to get you done and on to next patient. No extra profit required.

[Landdownunder]

probably different than your system here.

had both his replaced 3 rounds of shoulder surgery one knee all by same private surgeon.

wrecked my good knee possibly yesterday or maybe just hyper extension.

rang orthapedic surgeons office after the incident got mario on loud speaker with secretary.

"is it your knee or shoulder" "knee" "how bad" "think its stuffed" "find a slot for him tuesday and a MRI"

Wouldnt have happened in public system.

Those who choose private health shouldnt be vilified by those who beleive in public health.
My choice been in since i was 19. Paid my dues. Currently $95 per week for peace of mind and no waiting.

Asked the surgeon when i had last hip done is the cost of hip the same in public versus private to you, he said yes. He works in both. Only difference is anethatists charge more in public and "get away with it he said"

Last hip was 2021 in private hospital for 6 days before release public out in 2 see ya later


edit not sure of popualtion with private health insurance guessing 15 to 20%

[TSIPP]

The wife has been limping around for about 2 years, sometimes really bad and sometimes not so bad, finally saw a specialist yesterday, two years of moderate to extreme pain is not acceptable, was almost ready to go to the states and see a doctor, we definitely need private health care.

If she was a livestock I’d be in big trouble keeping her around!

[furrowtickler]

So A5 if you were paying for the knee surgery would you rather pay $10,000 in the public system or up to $28,000 in a private clinic all things being equal?

Let us know whether you would still prefer the private clinic? Maybe they will give you a deal on a hip and a knee for 20% off? Or throwin some extra surgery during a slow week? Nothing like the profit motive to upsell you something you don't really need! LOL

In the public system they just want to get you done and on to next patient. No extra profit required.

Or you can just get put on the waiting list for 3 years and develop other issues or get it done within 3 weeks .
For those that can afford it , all the power to them
Why a two tiered system cant exist in some minds is bewildering.
But then again ya I can see it , can’t let others have an “advantage” over others mentality is strong with some 🙄

[Guest]

Think CWB
Think land bank
Think Saskatchewan’s kids leaving the province for 50 years to get work
Etc. etc.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

If she was a livestock I’d be in big trouble keeping her around!

Sad but true. We have regulations and enforcement officers and fines relating to pain management in livestock. But with humans, we have almost the exact opposite system in place.
My neighbor was sending a horse to slaughter. But first he had to trim the feet, otherwise they won't accept the horses because it looks like they may have been neglected or abused.

[chuckChuck]

Still no evidence in Canada that private clinics would be cheaper or more efficient and reduce wait times?

Maybe you missed this key point.

"Public hospitals, according to Urbach, are funded to do a specific number of surgeries per year, and provincial governments could pay to schedule more surgeries at night or on the weekends."

Maybe the problem is provincial governments don't want to pay for all the an aging baby boomers that need surgery in a timely way? And they are rationing access to health care with stingy health care budgets?

As far as letting those with money pay for their own surgeries? That has always been possible by going to the USA with your credit card.

[chuckChuck]

probably different than your system here.

had both his replaced 3 rounds of shoulder surgery one knee all by same private surgeon.

wrecked my good knee possibly yesterday or maybe just hyper extension.

rang orthapedic surgeons office after the incident got mario on loud speaker with secretary.

"is it your knee or shoulder" "knee" "how bad" "think its stuffed" "find a slot for him tuesday and a MRI"

Wouldnt have happened in public system.

Those who choose private health shouldnt be vilified by those who beleive in public health.
My choice been in since i was 19. Paid my dues. Currently $95 per week for peace of mind and no waiting.

Asked the surgeon when i had last hip done is the cost of hip the same in public versus private to you, he said yes. He works in both. Only difference is anethatists charge more in public and "get away with it he said"

Last hip was 2021 in private hospital for 6 days before release public out in 2 see ya later


edit not sure of popualtion with private health insurance guessing 15 to 20%

So you pay taxes for public health care and another $5000 a year for medical insurance? How does that work when you are really old or suffering from chronic disease that costs the insurance companies a lot of payouts. Your premiums will go through the roof I suspect.

In the US millions of people can't afford health insurance or are under insured or can't get insurance because of their poor health. Their per capita health care costs are much larger than Canada's without good universal coverage.

Interesting to hear about the system in Australia. Is it possible that Australia has more regulation in healthcare surgery fees than in Canada?

During covid outbreaks in long term care I read that Australia has very strict well enforced standards for long term care.
Well that isn't the case in many provinces. There is very lax enforcement and only a voluntary standard in some provinces.

The result was many horrible deaths from covid and neglect in long term care in the for profit private long term care homes especially in Ontario and Quebec.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Maybe the problem is provincial governments don't want to pay for all the an aging baby boomers that need surgery in a timely way? And they are rationing access to health care with stingy health care budgets?

As far as letting those with money pay for their own surgeries? That has always been possible by going to the USA with your credit card.

Well said. You've just summarized the reason for this thread. When the supply is free, demand will be virtually unlimited.


Do you think there's any amount of funding that would allow the system to meet unlimited demand? Would 100% of all governments revenues, or 100% of our GDP be enough funding to not have to ration out a free product?
What is the economic benefit to our economy of encouraging people to take their business to the US when they need medical attention? Because I thought you just said that this is a funding issue? And now you are encouraging those who would be willing to fund it, to spend their money in a different country?

[chuckChuck]

Well said. You've just summarized the reason for this thread. When the supply is free, demand will be virtually unlimited.


Do you think there's any amount of funding that would allow the system to meet unlimited demand? Would 100% of all governments revenues, or 100% of our GDP be enough funding to not have to ration out a free product?
What is the economic benefit to our economy of encouraging people to take their business to the US when they need medical attention? Because I thought you just said that this is a funding issue? And now you are encouraging those who would be willing to fund it, to spend their money in a different country?

Why would you get a new hip or knee if you didn't need it? LOL Nobody wants surgery unless they need it.

Have you not heard of the demographic bubble of aging baby boomers? The health care impact of this aging population bubble has been talked about for a long time.

I wasn't encouraging anyone to use the US system. But many rich Canadians do.

But if you think private for profit care is okay why would a libertarian say it's not okay to go the US to pay for private healthcare?

You still haven't made a convincing argument that for profit private health care will shorten the line ups, give better care at a lower cost.