Rationing Health Care

[Landdownunder]

probably different than your system here.

had both his replaced 3 rounds of shoulder surgery one knee all by same private surgeon.

wrecked my good knee possibly yesterday or maybe just hyper extension.

rang orthapedic surgeons office after the incident got mario on loud speaker with secretary.

"is it your knee or shoulder" "knee" "how bad" "think its stuffed" "find a slot for him tuesday and a MRI"

Wouldnt have happened in public system.

Those who choose private health shouldnt be vilified by those who beleive in public health.
My choice been in since i was 19. Paid my dues. Currently $95 per week for peace of mind and no waiting.

Asked the surgeon when i had last hip done is the cost of hip the same in public versus private to you, he said yes. He works in both. Only difference is anethatists charge more in public and "get away with it he said"

Last hip was 2021 in private hospital for 6 days before release public out in 2 see ya later


edit not sure of popualtion with private health insurance guessing 15 to 20%

[TSIPP]

The wife has been limping around for about 2 years, sometimes really bad and sometimes not so bad, finally saw a specialist yesterday, two years of moderate to extreme pain is not acceptable, was almost ready to go to the states and see a doctor, we definitely need private health care.

If she was a livestock I’d be in big trouble keeping her around!

[furrowtickler]

So A5 if you were paying for the knee surgery would you rather pay $10,000 in the public system or up to $28,000 in a private clinic all things being equal?

Let us know whether you would still prefer the private clinic? Maybe they will give you a deal on a hip and a knee for 20% off? Or throwin some extra surgery during a slow week? Nothing like the profit motive to upsell you something you don't really need! LOL

In the public system they just want to get you done and on to next patient. No extra profit required.

Or you can just get put on the waiting list for 3 years and develop other issues or get it done within 3 weeks .
For those that can afford it , all the power to them
Why a two tiered system cant exist in some minds is bewildering.
But then again ya I can see it , can’t let others have an “advantage” over others mentality is strong with some 🙄

[Guest]

Think CWB
Think land bank
Think Saskatchewan’s kids leaving the province for 50 years to get work
Etc. etc.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

If she was a livestock I’d be in big trouble keeping her around!

Sad but true. We have regulations and enforcement officers and fines relating to pain management in livestock. But with humans, we have almost the exact opposite system in place.
My neighbor was sending a horse to slaughter. But first he had to trim the feet, otherwise they won't accept the horses because it looks like they may have been neglected or abused.

[chuckChuck]

Still no evidence in Canada that private clinics would be cheaper or more efficient and reduce wait times?

Maybe you missed this key point.

"Public hospitals, according to Urbach, are funded to do a specific number of surgeries per year, and provincial governments could pay to schedule more surgeries at night or on the weekends."

Maybe the problem is provincial governments don't want to pay for all the an aging baby boomers that need surgery in a timely way? And they are rationing access to health care with stingy health care budgets?

As far as letting those with money pay for their own surgeries? That has always been possible by going to the USA with your credit card.

[chuckChuck]

probably different than your system here.

had both his replaced 3 rounds of shoulder surgery one knee all by same private surgeon.

wrecked my good knee possibly yesterday or maybe just hyper extension.

rang orthapedic surgeons office after the incident got mario on loud speaker with secretary.

"is it your knee or shoulder" "knee" "how bad" "think its stuffed" "find a slot for him tuesday and a MRI"

Wouldnt have happened in public system.

Those who choose private health shouldnt be vilified by those who beleive in public health.
My choice been in since i was 19. Paid my dues. Currently $95 per week for peace of mind and no waiting.

Asked the surgeon when i had last hip done is the cost of hip the same in public versus private to you, he said yes. He works in both. Only difference is anethatists charge more in public and "get away with it he said"

Last hip was 2021 in private hospital for 6 days before release public out in 2 see ya later


edit not sure of popualtion with private health insurance guessing 15 to 20%

So you pay taxes for public health care and another $5000 a year for medical insurance? How does that work when you are really old or suffering from chronic disease that costs the insurance companies a lot of payouts. Your premiums will go through the roof I suspect.

In the US millions of people can't afford health insurance or are under insured or can't get insurance because of their poor health. Their per capita health care costs are much larger than Canada's without good universal coverage.

Interesting to hear about the system in Australia. Is it possible that Australia has more regulation in healthcare surgery fees than in Canada?

During covid outbreaks in long term care I read that Australia has very strict well enforced standards for long term care.
Well that isn't the case in many provinces. There is very lax enforcement and only a voluntary standard in some provinces.

The result was many horrible deaths from covid and neglect in long term care in the for profit private long term care homes especially in Ontario and Quebec.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Maybe the problem is provincial governments don't want to pay for all the an aging baby boomers that need surgery in a timely way? And they are rationing access to health care with stingy health care budgets?

As far as letting those with money pay for their own surgeries? That has always been possible by going to the USA with your credit card.

Well said. You've just summarized the reason for this thread. When the supply is free, demand will be virtually unlimited.


Do you think there's any amount of funding that would allow the system to meet unlimited demand? Would 100% of all governments revenues, or 100% of our GDP be enough funding to not have to ration out a free product?
What is the economic benefit to our economy of encouraging people to take their business to the US when they need medical attention? Because I thought you just said that this is a funding issue? And now you are encouraging those who would be willing to fund it, to spend their money in a different country?

[chuckChuck]

Well said. You've just summarized the reason for this thread. When the supply is free, demand will be virtually unlimited.


Do you think there's any amount of funding that would allow the system to meet unlimited demand? Would 100% of all governments revenues, or 100% of our GDP be enough funding to not have to ration out a free product?
What is the economic benefit to our economy of encouraging people to take their business to the US when they need medical attention? Because I thought you just said that this is a funding issue? And now you are encouraging those who would be willing to fund it, to spend their money in a different country?

Why would you get a new hip or knee if you didn't need it? LOL Nobody wants surgery unless they need it.

Have you not heard of the demographic bubble of aging baby boomers? The health care impact of this aging population bubble has been talked about for a long time.

I wasn't encouraging anyone to use the US system. But many rich Canadians do.

But if you think private for profit care is okay why would a libertarian say it's not okay to go the US to pay for private healthcare?

You still haven't made a convincing argument that for profit private health care will shorten the line ups, give better care at a lower cost.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

You keep contradicting yourself. You started out claiming this was a lack of human resources and resources, and that by allowing additional funding to compete for those finite resources, it would only make the problem worse. So I offered the example of the parallel public and private systems in road construction, and suddenly you changed your argument to being a lack of funding, not a lack of resources. Then you suggested we should send more funding to the US system rather than capture it in our own underfunded system. So apparently you aren't very concerned about shortage of capital either.
To the casual observer, one could be excused for thinking you don't actually have any solutions to offer, you just want to repeat the mantra that private or profit is bad, public is good.

[chuckChuck]

You keep contradicting yourself. You started out claiming this was a lack of human resources and resources, and that by allowing additional funding to compete for those finite resources, it would only make the problem worse. So I offered the example of the parallel public and private systems in road construction, and suddenly you changed your argument to being a lack of funding, not a lack of resources. Then you suggested we should send more funding to the US system rather than capture it in our own underfunded system. So apparently you aren't very concerned about shortage of capital either.
To the casual observer, one could be excused for thinking you don't actually have any solutions to offer, you just want to repeat the mantra that private or profit is bad, public is good.

It's a combination of many things depending on what part of the healthcare system we are talking about.

It's staff shortages. And according to the quote I included, a shortage of provincial budget funds for more surgeries.

Of course I don't have the solutions and neither do you.

But what i can do is read about what healthcare professionals are saying about the system.

How many of them are saying we can do more and cheaper in a private parallel system of for profit clinics? Where would the staff and budget come from if they are both short?

And where would the profit come from?

You don't have any good answers or evidence that the private system would solve the problems.

Many Canadians don't have a family doctor. As a result they end up at overun ERs or walk in clinics.
Many hospital beds are tied up with seniors needing long term care beds that aren't available.

Sounds like the system is short of many things.

And where is the evidence that these systemic problems would be solved by private for profit healthcare?

Show us the evidence! We are waiting.

I think conservative governments want to blame public healthcare, set up private health care as much as possible and offload some their healthcare budgets onto those who need surgeries and healthcare so that someone can make a profit off the backs of those who need help. Its unethical.

[Landdownunder]

depends on level of cover you wish to have.

good friend almost 70 his premium tad lower than mine his choice.

hasnt got as high extra cover meaning chiropracters covered or optomitrists huge array of differences in cover and what you want.

tweaked mine only a month ago and chap said "that dont do cover like this anymore rolls royce" been in it for years as i said. my choice my $$$$

another example over due for colonoscopy by about 2 years rang gastroligists office 6 week wait versus apparently 18 month in public sysem will pay for peace of mind.

was a bit of a rough and tumble chap in many ascpects of my life dear old dad suggested way back when err i think you better get private medical wise advice.

covid related issues way quicker in private as well.

free ambulance cover as well lots of advantages.

wife cracked her skull in a horse fall helicoptered from farm to big smoke bit over $11000 all covered.

[Landdownunder]

Im not a burden on public health system one less they have to worry about.

[Landdownunder]

at least you guys trying to curb alcohol abuse. sorry small cut and paste.

cut my beer and red wine to bugger all feel better for it. had 2 mid strength beers last night after hard day in shearing shed first beer for 2 weeks. read on

Canada has recently moved to lower the recommended weekly number of standard drinks to two, amid growing evidence of alcohol’s harms.

In line with this, the JAMA study found alcohol consumption was associated with “a significantly increased risk of all-cause mortality” and that those who didn’t drink lived longer. The higher risk of mortality kicked in for women if consumption was two drinks a day or more, whereas for men three or four drinks a day was the threshold for harm.

Australia recommends no more than 10 drinks a week and no more than four in one session.

Canada’s guidelines are based on good evidence, but Professor Stamatakis says they’re unlikely to be replicated here.

“The Canadian guidelines have been criticised for being non-realistic,” he says. “We have to acknowledge that alcohol is a very big part of our … social life. ”

[AlbertaFarmer5]

p so that someone can make a profit off the backs of those who need help. Its unethical.

But letting people Fester away in chronic pain for years while they wait in line for the rationed services of the public system is not unethical?
Just so long as they all suffer equally, and no one makes any profit, then the suffering is ethical, correct?