Alberta...debt free?

[gwynplaine]

A couple of concerns.

$65,000 a year baby sitters? Is that what you call the people who spend more time with your children than you do? What value do you put on your children? It concerns me, that teachers are looked upon so lowly, when they in fact are not just teachers anymore, they are councillors, de facto parents, and for the most part, care about their kids. There are, as with any job, the poor ones and the plain bad teachers, but far and away the majority devote their lives to YOUR children. Much is made of the 2 months vacation, but if you actually meet a teacher, you'll understand the amount of time it takes to teach your children, and the amout of unpaid overtime they put in marking, planning, and coaching extra-curricular activities. Talk to one, ask how much of their own time (evenings, weekends, holidays) they donate. I'm ok with paying them top dollar services, to encourage new and young, enthusiastic dedicated teachers. In short, look at the persons doing the job, not the union or the sterotype. Perhaps I'm biased, having family memebrs as teachers and a great deal of friends from University that came through the Education program. Look into it, though.

OK, I have more concerns, but no more time. I'd imagine I'll be back.

[cowman]

I have one sister who is still teaching, one retired and one an U of A prof! My mother was also a school teacher, during the war! When my dad came home she quit to help on the farm and take care of him.
My old mother(83) is apalled by the way teachers complain about all their hard work and keep demanding more money!
Counselling? Try telling a seven year old why her daddy was killed in Italy while her own husband is fighting on the front lines at Casino and later shot up real bad in a field hospital in Holland?
The thing I was trying to say was this: The times are a changing? A whole lot of kids can learn a whole lot more than at a school? The internet is changing all our lives...why not learning? Get rid of close to half the schools?
By the way I will note my own children are done school(well one in her third year of university) and they did very well. I will note they were all "learners" who could read and write well before they ever went to school. My wife and I did little in the way of them learning this...in fact it was Sesame Street that taught them!
Of course we'll always need schools but I do believe we could eliminate a lot of them if we could get rid of the "education oligarchy" which is more concerned with keeping the status quoe alive and well than giving the customer value for their money?

[Horse]

I have always wondered when people say that ralph and co have done a good job of managing our economy as compared to what and inverably they will point at sask or BC but there is nothing to compare as we all have different resources and issues.
But if you look at what we get for our money you will see we get very little . It kind of reminds me of one time I went to the neibours when he waS COMBINING and there was grain all over behind the comb when I mentioned it to him his answer was where was still lots going in the hopper.
Thats how I think the most of albertians look at it.

[cakadu]

There are many who are expected to do more in their jobs for less pay - often unpaid overtime. That's kind of what happens when you are a salaried employee versus one that gets paid by the hour. It would be interesting to see the split in the number of teachers who put in the extra effort and those who show up at 8:00 and leave at 4:30 or whenever it is they get off these days.

We have gone "lean and mean" these last few years, but who has it affected more - the person who makes $100K per year or the one making $8.00/hr? I sometimes have to wonder who has really paid to see the debt wiped out.

The "working poor" are increasing in number - why is that?

This will be a flag that is waved heartily in the run up to what is anticipated to be a fall election. How about we hold them accountable and see where they would like to go in the future? What plans do they have then?

[gwynplaine]

With regards to Saskatchewan and BC, I think we need to point out it's the government mismanagment that has them in trouble. Take, for example, there are more Forested acres in Sask than in Alberta (seriously... look it up), similar natural gas and Oil deposits, and amazing amounts of farmland. It's the socialist "Let The Government Do It" attitude that's killing their economies.

Teachers that do no work after 4:30? Find one for me. Really, I'll wait, I can afford the time. And, CLOSE more schools? Want to speak of widening the gap between rich and poor, how will the 'working poor' afford the time and effort required to ensure their children are learning properly (seeing as they're stretched to the limit and going to bed hungry every night). Let alone the cost of Computers, software and what have to just to get hooked up. And, it is a fact that poorer children get into more trouble with the law, thus perpetuating the cycle of poverty and crime. With no time as it is for proper supervision, these children 'educated' by the Internet, I predict, will have even more time for petty crime and vandalism. The dollars we spend on education go a long way, I believe, in giving less fortunate kids a chance. That being said, the system IS flawed, must be streamlined and re-worked in such a fashion that education dollars are spent educating, not on admin.

I do understand it would be difficult to explain to a child that their father was dead. A horrible task! However, look at how teachers these days are impotent, regarding discipline. 'Don't touch my child'. I got strapped at school, and was terrified of telling my parents, for fear that I'd get it twice as bad at home. Try that today. The ammount that kids need to know these days is also far greater than what it was even 25 years ago.

With regards to wages, it takes 11 years to get to $60,000 per year for a teacher. They start at $36,000. For the most part, they are worth $60, 000 and more. There are ALWAYS exceptions. Some, I'm sure, do not deserve even half the money they make - it is the same in ANY industry.

However, your'e absolutly correct when you say the top-heavy oligarchy (I prefer beurocracy) needs to be elimintinated. What's the solution? I know what it isn't. It is most emphatically NOT closing schools.

[cakadu]

Home schooling may be fine for some, but it seems to me that you have to be fairly well educated yourself about a wide variety of subjects in order to be able to home school and most of us just don't fit that bill.

As for the schools themselves, we should be taking a look at how they are funded. From what I can gather and have been told, schools get their money based on what they have to offer students. The greater variety, the more money you get, but is that the best way to spend the money? Should you have classes of 12 students taking conversational Japanese for example, when one of the biggest complaints we hear from the teachers is class size. Shouldn't that money be used to make the class sizes more manageable? I don't know if we can make that call without having a review of what is happening and see where changes and improvements could be made.

Teaching is like any other job - if you don't like what's happening, go and find something that you do like. I'm not convinced that society should be held hostage by teachers threatening to strike if they don't get their way. It's not the school board that is going to suffer - it is the students. If we are going to hold teachers accountable for educating and socializing the students, then maybe they should be considered an essential service which takes away any threat of strike action. Parents should not have to be burdened with finding alternatives for their kids if there is no school. It is not the parents who make the decisions about what gets paid or given as benefits to teachers.

We expect a lot from teachers, but they get compensated for it too and a lot more than teachers do in the U.S. for example. I also think that teachers must put up with a lot from parents - it is a double edged sword.

I don't really want to get into an argument about which teachers leave when and for how long. I think it is safe to leave it at there are exceptions to the rule and it might be more than what you think.

Now, taxing for eduction is a whole other debate.

[cowman]

How much money does the province spend per child? How much of that money goes for administration, how much for staff salarys, how much for building costs? I suspect it would be cheaper to provide a kid a personal computer that had access only to a "learning center"? I do realize you couldn't eliminate all the schools as a lot of kids need a "babysitter" but you could get rid of a lot of them?
Education, like medi-care, is a black hole where money disappears never to be seen again! Sooner or later they have to get these two things under control or there won't be any money for the things that "really" make the world go around...infrastructure! Who ever decided in the first place that it was the governments job to provide education and healthcare?
Governments only job should be to protect its citizens and to provide the infrastructure to carry on Commerce!

[GrnAsMoss]

Cowman, with all your wisdom and ideas, why don't you join in your local school board and get involved? (Maybe you have.) That would give you an inside view of how the system works. They are usually looking to fill a seat in the local business community.
Warm up by volunteering in an Elementary class that has 27 kids. See what those teachers put up with in a day. I know I'd come unglued if I had to deal with 27 kids all day under the age of 10.

[cowman]

Well sorry, I neither have the time or the inclination! Too busy trying to keep the wolf from the door!
However when I was young I actually considered being a teacher! Luckily my dad pointed out that he had other plans for me.
But maybe I should have? I'd be retired on a full pension by now!
While I don't in any way envy the teacher her 27 little nightmares, we should remember these people went into it with their eyes wide open and are compensated pretty well for their efforts?
Nine weeks off in the summer, two at Christmas, two at Easter, plus a day off every month...I guess that works out to another two? So 15 weeks paid holiday?
They put in close to a six hour day for 37 weeks a year or about 1110 hours a year? You say $61,000 is the salary? And probably the various benifits add up to at least a few more bucks? Say $70,000 for 1110 hours work?
That's over $63/hr.? Not too bad, huh?
It just seems to me that our education system costs more every year when in fact it should be costing less? In a cost efficient system, new technology should lower costs? Instead we are paying for a system dominated by a militant greedy union whose only interest is keeping the gravy train going! Time to throw the education system into the private sector and let them clean up the abuses?

[gwynplaine]

I find it interesting that you're so willing to throw our children into the private sector, what with its lowest cost principle and profit-based incentives. Not to menton the evils of globalisation, and the slavery it implies. Why, the corporations would own the schools and the souls of the children within a matter of months! You don't find it inconsistant to speak of trade protection in one thread, then open market in another? How, exactly, would a free-market school system work? Wouldn't that imply only the rich get access to the better teachers, and the poor would recive no funding whatsoever? Weren't we recently speaking of a level playing field? I don't support a level playing field, I don't believe eveyone is equal. I support a fair system, where everyone has access to the same services, and the same start (and that includes access to a funded high school education). But that's it. There, that's my extent of socialist tendancies (maybe not, as freedom requires an educated population. Hmm.. I'll have to pursue this).

(Curious, isn't it, that a discussion about the debt free status of Alberta has evolved into a debate regarding the relative value of the education system as a whole, and the Teachers in particular.)

The calculations resulting in a $63 per hour teaching wage may be a little skewed. Absolutly, there are only 1100 classroom hours per school year.... I seriously doubt anyone recieves $9,000 per year in benefits ($750/month? and, let us not forget, it takes 11 years teaching to get to $61,000.). I ask again: how may teachers put in their time only in the classroom? They make good money, and they deserve it. A generalisation, I admit.

We all seem fairly decided in our degree of support for the teaching profession, let's perhaps leave it at that. I've obviously been exposed to more 'good' teachers than yourself. Perhaps that affects my judgement. Now... let's focus on feeding the homeless and relieveing the burden on the 'working poor'.

[cowman]

Why would you assume you were exposed to better teachers than myself? That has nothing to do with what I was trying to say?
What I was saying is this: While the teacher might very well be worth her/his salary, are they truly necessary in this modern world? Not all of them, but some of them? Can we reduce that staff number and save some money?
If I had shares in any company I would want them to run it as efficiently as possible? Doesn't that make sense? Why is a government service any different?
How would a private type school system work...simple...the Alberta government says so much for every child in funding...say $4000(cheaper than the current system)! The education providers have to follow a set curriculum and pass certain standards. Do you think that might work? Now if the entrepreneur decides a PC and a central learning center will work for his clientele then why wouldn't we go for it? How is this biased against the poor?
Do you believe these "new" educators might inflict some "radical" ideas on the students? More radical than the leftist crap they are being fed right now?
I do consider myself a socialist(always have) in that I believe in the rights of people! Not the rich and wealthy but your average Joe! Not because I believe every poor person deserves a "handout" but that they have an inherent right to share in the wealth of their country! To what degree that comes to is how much individual effort you want to put into it! But the basic "dividend" should never be a question.

[cowman]

Oh by the way I'll check with number 4 sister about the benefits! Unemployment insurance, health care, dental, blue cross, eye care, workmans comp., CPP, Occupational safety, pension plan, sabbaticals, personal learning days...they can add up pretty fast! I'll get back to you on that one! Also check that top salary...seems she was doing better than that!

[gwynplaine]

I think I'm pretty much done with this dicussion.

$4000? Are you joking? You actually propose a better, more efficient education system with that pittiance? I doubt strongly that you understand the ramifications of the system you propose (Especially coming from a self-confessed socialist, I find this humorous).

Now, back to rural issues.

How is a paid dividend, where the undeserving, the lazy, and the unambitious reap the benefits of my training, hard work and dedication, NOT a handout? I've worked, saved, and studied hard to get to where I am today. I have applied myself and suceeded, and anticipate more of the same in the future. I feel no compunction whatsoever to 'share' the rewards of my labours. I had access to the same start as every Albertan. (Public Education, student loans, scolarships), and I used them. I hate the fact that the more I work, an increasing proportion of what I earn goes to support those who won't help themselves. And please, spare me the bull about the 'working poor'. Life is a series of choices. How you choose (and the consequences reflected therein) defines your life. Would you want to pay for my bad choices? I've absorbed mine, and moved on.

As a proud Canadian, I will still only ever live in Alberta, where housing is afforrdable, taxes are lower than anywhere else, and we have a government that encourages its citizens to succeed and help themselves. The day your 'Utopia' is instituted, I (and other like, productive minds) will leave to a place where we aren't penalized for succeeding (I believe this is referred to as the 'brain drain'). Witness the situation in Saskatchewan - which is in the beginning stages of reversing - where there is no incentive whatsoever to retain a young, aggressive, innovative workforce. A lot (a LOT) of these people are in ALberta now. Let's try to analyze why...

[cowman]

Well I definitely can see you are not a socialist!
The premise is this: You don't own this country or all its wonderful natural resources! You own a part of that but so does that bum in the gutter! So does that little girl who made a mistake and now ends up a single mother? Thus they deserve a "dividend"...just like you do or even I?
I always am amazed by people who think, because of their "efforts" they are some how better than someone else! Perhaps you don't subscribe to the saying "There but for the grace of God, go I?" Vanity and pride....the two greatest sins?
You should check out what made Alberta great? It really wasn't the stumble bums we have running the province now or for the past thirty some years! It was a "Socialist" government called SOCIAL CREDIT! Perhaps your problem is you don't understand what a real socialist is but have been brainwashed by the modern education system?

[cowman]

Oh and actually I believe the average cost to educate a child isn't much more than that $4000 figure? Seems to me it was right around $4300 the last time I heard? If not, then maybe I'm a bit out of touch, and if that is the case I'm sorry. Do you have any figures?
Oh and by the way...are you by chance a school teacher?