A sad day

[blackjack]

...what a country we live in...tell our teenage kids not to smoke cigs...but its OK to smoke MJ...goverment make laws so the gun trade goes underground...cities filling up with gangs...rural areas more and more becoming homes to these growups...

...heard an Edmonton policeman say it is basically the system ...we arrest them...the judge slaps there wrist...so in my opinion the politicians and lawyers are the problem...crime is obviously big business for the criminals and the lawyers...so nothing will change because we all know who run the country...lawyers and judges...

[gmj]

Lawyers are Politicians; and Politicians are Lawyers who make the Laws we cannot live with

[cowman]

Well the word is there were twenty plants...not exactly a big multi-million grow op? I wonder how come there haven't been any pictures of cops packing out garbage bags full of dope or stories of how many millions of dollars the plants were worth? Anne McClellan was quick to condemn this "organized criminal grow Op" as the reason for this tradgedy! Annie...show us the plants!
I wonder why? Maybe to deflect the real truth...that the senior RCMP staff screwed up big time and got these four officers killed? If they spotted a grow op why didn't they call in the "green Team"? Why did they call in the Auto theft unit?
There are a lot of questions unanswered here? On the first news reports it was reported that a SWAT sharpshooter shot the killer. Later they reported, no he killed himself, and now it is, we don't know for sure who killed him? Something just doesn't add up here?
Why would the RCMP send four inexperienced officers into a situation where they knew the individual was totally irrational and highly violent? He had stated many times he hated cops and would gladly kill them.
Is there a solution? Should we lock up more people? If so who is going to pay? Do we really have the resources to bust all these grow ops(20,000 in BC alone according to the RCMP)? Can we afford as a nation to lock up everybody who smokes dope? I believe a national poll pegged that number at about 37% of the population...that works out to around 10 million people who have broken this law? I wonder how many of our MPs, MLAs, mayors, doctors, teachers, lawyers, judges would have qualified for jail if we had those kind of draconian laws?
The fact of the matter is this "problem" is out of control and isn't going to improve unless we face reality? MJ in Canada is reality and the only way to fix the problem is to legalize and regulate it.

[raymondb]

Legalize and Regulate MJ?? Lets see-tobacco is legalized and regulated and yet statistics and science tell us that the health costs due to tobacco far exceed the tax revenue we receive or will ever receive. Speeding on highway 2 is done by over 80% of the people driving on this highway-Should we just increase the speed limit? Guns are regulated and controlled and yet they are still used to commit crimes.-I wander if we would ever get the costs of gun control showing us that this was a good way to use our tax dollars. I think that the answer is in our courts. If we get appropriate consequences for the crimes committed, we should get less crime-not more.

From all I have seen about teens on hard drugs I have noticed one common element-they all started with mj and graduated to a harder drug and everyone that has had successful rehabilitation states that mj should never be legalized.

From a father who has lived the devastation that mj causes.

[cropduster]

Cowman...please re-read my first post.It is about the Liberal legal system NOT grow ops and MJ or some other wishy washy policy.We need to re-visit values similar to the TEN COMMANDMENTS.Now I know you`ll go ballistic since I may be seen to be endorsing GWB`s values but it(commandments) certainly is more credible than MR.DITHERS!!!!!!!!!

[cowman]

Well I would certainly question the figures that costs outweigh the tax costs on cigarettes? Actually that is completely false as tobacco actually removes a lot of older people from collecting benifits? The fact is when you hit retirement you are actually a major drain on society...not a plus...economically speaking!
raymond: I do understand your concern...I had a daughter involved in drugs. I'm not trying to make light of the problem, but obviously what we are doing now isn't working? And the US experience shows harsher penalties definitely do not work?
Cropduster: Where in the ten commandments is MJ mentioned? I'm not trying to create a fight here...I neither smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol or smoke dope! I might like to, but unfortunately my health won't let me! LOL
George Bush truly isn't a good example? He has basically turned Afganhistan back into the major # 1 supplier of opium/heroin? With his insane "war on drugs" he has created more criminals than any man in modern history! I am not a fan of Paul Martin. I do believe the senate got it pretty right when they brought out their report on MJ? The conclusion was #1 legalize it and #2 it is NOT a gateway drug! Now think what you might about the senate, but the fact is these were a group of highly educated older people who studied the situation, really had no axe to grind, no political aspirations...what did they reccommend?

[cowman]

The death of the four officers was not due to MJ, their purpose was to seize a truck, when they entered the property on Wednesday they found the plants and a lot of stolen goods.
The guy was nuts, whether or not he was a drug user ......however, legalizing the damn stuff sure isn't going to save more lives. Until the courts keep repeat violent offenders behind bars law enforcment officers and the public will continue to be at risk of another nutcase doing the same thing.

[cropduster]

Thanks,Emerald!My understanding is the guy at Rochfort Bridge has extensive criminal experience and that`s why I`m complaining about "the legal system". Sorry Cowman you`re missing my point.

[15444]

Although I realize that cropduster is coming from a different angle on this particular case, I agree with cowman on the legalization issue. The battle on MJ is lost and no amount of enforcement is going to stop it. That opportunity passed us by about 10 years ago when biker gangs started to flourish around this country.

Had the opportunity to chat with a young man while waiting at a bus stop in Winnipeg about 2 weeks ago. He had just smoked a little MJ after getting off of work and was in the mood to converse with anyone who was comfortable talking to him. He seemed fairly intelligent. Due to his recent smoke, we started talking about MJ and his experiences. He had been smoking for the past 8 years and, for a period of time ending about 2 years ago, was a 'runner' for the Hells Angels. He said at that time, there was roughly 1200 runners in Winnipeg. He got involved through a distant cousin, who is part of the 11 chapter members in Winnipeg. I asked him about what legalization of MJ would do to the organized biker gangs. He said that MJ revenue is what pays all the runners plus provides a significant boost to chapter members pay. I asked about the influence that cocaine and heroine have on the drug cash flow. He said that its incredibly hard to get younger people hooked on cocaine and heroine, so little income is made, especially in Winnipeg. He said, in Winnipeg, that cocaine is in low demand, and heroine is basically nil. (Now if you compare that with somewhere like Victoria, I imagine that it would be quite different)

I asked him about the new 'Bandidos' chapter that started up in Winnipeg, according to recent newscasts. He said the Bandidos had been in Winnipeg for the last 6 months and that it was largely set up by guys who were runners for the Angels, who know what kind of money can be made on pot.

Now, by looking at his comments, I would think that legalizing MJ would cut the % of money available to the gangs, and as a result, cut the number of runners they can pay....slowly leading to fewer and fewer runners.

[gwynplaine]

Cowman, you may want to re-check some of your sources cited. The socio-economic ramifications of legalized and regulated marijuana have been argued both ways, and fairly well, but the big sticking point is finding a standard, inexpensive test for intoxification. The smoking studies comparing taxation revenue to infirm costs are actually in disagreement with you, smokers take more out than they put back in, regardless of age of death (I say this as a reluctant smoker). When talking about marijuana being a gateway drug, we digress into semantics. Any studies attempting to deal with them are highly correlation. In other words, it becomes very difficult to sort cause from effect. The truth is, most hard drug users used marijuana first, but is the pot the root cause, or because they had a predestination towards drug abuse, genetic or social, and marijuana is the most readily avaialble?

Now, my own 2 bits worth. Granted, this is a horrible tragedy, unparalled in 120 years. There is going to be a great deal of analysis with the 20/20 benefit of Hindsight. I do however, hope we can escape the "Horse is gone, close the Barn Door" mentality. Granted, the Legal System should punish the Guilty, but we must also protect the innocent, and maintain some semblance of rights, freedoms, and civil liberties.

[cakadu]

Cowman, I would hate to think of the social ramifications of having legalized marjuana. What has keeping liquor available done for us? We have one of the highest per capita consumption rates, untold problems because of it and increasing use by young people. Granted the last one it is hard to say whether it is on as steep an increase as they say, but still the message just doesn't seem to be getting through.

How would police officers tell if you were over the limit on smoking pot? Unless the car was rolling down the street looking like the Cheech and Chong mobile, you'd be hard pressed. I'm sure it is no different than alcohol - it affects everyone differently.

As for it leading to harder drug use, gwynplaine has probably hit the nail on the head. Would it be any different than someone who is potentially predisposed to being an alcoholic? Some people can drink socially and never have it be a problem - ever, but others take that one drink and a thousand is never enough.

I also don't want to see us go to the other extreme because this one incident happened, as tragic as it is. We have other examples out there where we have gone overboard and it has just created more chaos.

[gwynplaine]

Sorry...noticed a couple grammer errors, there... my brain's on a little tighter today. the studies are "correlational", and a person may be "predisposed" towards drug abuse (not predestined).