Down on the farm

[cowman]

The basic fact we are all missing here is that if Alberta did not have any grazing leases on Crown Land, then we would all be better off?
I'm not up on all the figures but I believe it is in that $36 million range?
The Alberta taxpayer would be in fact $36 million richer if no cattle were on this land? Is this right?
Now consider Horse contention? Why should he be expected to compete with cattle that actually are subsidized, by the state? I don't know about you, but I am quite aware what it costs me to graze a cow? How do my cows compete with a cow that is getting a massive subsidy from the Alberta government? My cows eat grass from private land...not public land that the Alberta government is subsidizing?
You can agrue this forever but the fact remains...in the big picture some Alberta cattlemen are being paid to graze their cows...while others(the majority) are PAYING to graze their cows!
Do you think it would be sensible to curtail this activity? Perhaps the government should redefine a grazing lease? Maybe define it as the "grazing rights", not the mineral/surface right or for that matter the recreational rights? I mean in the end who really owns this land...the rancher or the people of Alberta? If you believe it is the people of Alberta...then why isn't our government maximizing our return?

[Horse]

I sure do welcome the debate even if ivbenconed cant see where I am coming from cowman you are right except I would imagine the figure is more like 50 mill anual now and that does not include sicmic pipelines drilling entry fees . You said you know how much it costs to graze a cow , here it is between 20 /30$ per AUM thats a lot more than 1.39 per AUM grazing fees on crown land .
We are all up in arms over exorbident profits by the packers well I dont know if they even come close to grazing lease holders At 1000% profit plus whatever they can get out of the grass.
The alta gov says they are out of business well I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder.
Ivbenconed what are the rates in sask and what arangements do lease holders have on resource revenue here you can even sell the sand and gravel and clay sure the govmet gets royalties but why does the lease holder get any ?
Some say if I think it is so good buy some leases well if I think gas is to high do I have to but an oil co besides then what John Deere.

[cowman]

The government allowed these leases to become property. Thus the buying and selling of these leases? A solution would to be to cancel the leases, pay off the people who own them and then put them up for tender every year...just like any other private property? The guy who gets the lease is only renting the GRASS...period! No oil income, no recreation income...make that very clear!
Now somewhere on here somebody stated they bid $1.10/AUM and didn't get the grass? I believe they said it went for $1.25? Or $37.50/AUM?
How long would it take for the Alberta government to recoup the cost of these leases with a grazing fee like this plus the $40 million or so extra in oil/gas revenues?
As an Alberta citizen I expect my government to manage our collective property in the best economic manner possible? Isn't that reasonable?
Maybe it's time everybody got a kick at the can, instead of the chosen few?
I've got to go with Horse on this one. The Alberta government has no business subsidizing some to the detriment of the majority.

[cowman]

The Thurber Grazing Lease Review attempted to change things but I am sure that the final result did not go as far as the report had advocated.
There was a huge push back as you know from leaseholders, many of whom had more surface leases generating revenue than they did cows on the grazing leases.
However, having said that, I know people that do have leases and utilize them for grazing, and aren't receiving any oil and gas revenue. Those folks need the extra grass and I for one would hate to see them lose the right to it. The only way this will change is for the public to put pressure on government and it will have to come from across the province. ABP will no doubt be considered to be the voice of the industry on this one too.

[cowman]

And what is ABPs position? Is it the position of the majority of cattle producers? Or the elite few?
The Thurber commission caved in to the leaseholders in a big way. Klein backed away because people like Jack Horner made such a stink about losing their little goldmine!
The problem here is simple? The leaseholders feel they own this land and therefore can control everything on it. The government has allowed this and has never had the backbone to stand up to the political storm that would result if they attempted to reinstate the people of Albertas ownership.
The original leases were cancelled quite regularily as homesteaders moved into an area and needed land. Somewhere along the line this practice ended and we created what amounts to permanent grazing leases.
Now wealthy men control a lot of these grazing leases...might not care one hoot about the grazing! More interested in having a cash cow in the form of surface rights money or a private playground to hunt and fish in? Is this right? Was this the intention of the original "grazing lease"? I somehow have a hard time supporting a multi millionaire oil man sitting in a high rise office building in Calgary, crying about his grazing rights?
I do realize a lot of these grazing leases are actually losers that really don't make sense, unless they can get the surface revenue. In fact it might even be suggested that the majority of them are dogs? Obviously the heritage ranches of southern Alberta are another story?
The one thing we should never forget though is this: This land is owned by the people of Alberta! Our government should be managing it to our best economic advantage? Just like most of the oil and gas belong to the people of Alberta?....but then I guess the Klein government doesn't do much of a job there either?

[ivbinconned]

Be carefull what you ask for!!

As Winston churchill once said:
"a democracy is the UNequal distribution of wealth, socialism is the equal distribution of poverty!

Move to saskatchewan horse!! You could likly sell out and buy a lot bigger spread here. And you could share in the poverty.

I do not know what arrangment lease holders have in sask. reguarding resourse revenue ( we leave ours in the ground) but I can tell you that my lease has cost me far more than it is worth these past 7 years on account of the drought. Lands branch employees have to be paid.

However...I would NEVER advocate, cowman, that these monies should all go to the government for them to redistribute at their whim. Never!

If I where in horse's situation where a neighbor is getting a benifit from his lease that I do not, would not have me nursing a great deal of envy and loathing. Jealousy will destroy your life...but is oh so tempting.

My neighbor getting a benifit that I don't means that the moneys stays in rural area, gets invested in the area, it may help build the local curling rink, supports the local dealerships, church's etc and many other enteprises.

It has diversified your economy.

The neigbor is spending his money and good on him, I am happy for him as I am for my neighbor who 10 years ago bought a quarter close to me...cheap and sold it last year for close to half a million because of the excellent gravel on it.

Do I wish that that might be my good fortune...you bet! Do I stew and and get bent out of shape just because he lucked out and I haven't...NEVER!

Learn to say..."good for you", horse, and you may find it will change your world view and make you a happier man.

[ivbinconned]

Excellent comments ivbeenconned !!!

[Horse]

Boy it sure is strange how things look depending on what side of the fence you sit on I realy dont think I begrudge anyone getting ahead if they made good choices or got lucky but when you realy look at it , its like cowman said what was the intent.
If I had alease I could not cut trees or make improvements without gov concent but I can sell gravel and collect oil revenue ?
If you can go and get the same deal from private land show me and if you cant why not if it is all right and good in the public domain why not in the private.
ivbeenconed was your deeded grass any dryer than your lease? Why is it a crime to have dry lease and not deeded I pay taxes or rent every yr not just on the good ones.
And back at you if sask is so damm bad why dont you get out there is lots of land here for sale.

[Horse]

PS The money goes to those that owned the cattle is what the gov says . Well now you have free grass welfare cows gov grants and payments all on cattle that are only there for the purpose of collecting oil revenue and those of us that are actualy in the cattle business trying to compete just how much worse could it be in sask.

[ivbinconned]

Move to Alberta? In a heartbeat! All my kids and grandkids are now there. Remember your economy is far more diversafied than ours, here we have "capital($) punishment"!

I have had a for sale sign on a good productive quarter for two years and have had it advertized in the papers. It does not sell now even at a price which is half what I could have got 15 years ago. I have heard older men say here in this province that they used to think their land was an asset....but it has become a liability. Scarey!!

Hard to leave here horse considering the circumstances, can't get it sold here and even if I could...what then could I buy in Alberta.

The difference between leaseing government land and renting grass from a private individual is that the individual can not sell you what is not there!! No grass no cash!
But some how the government can. Its like renting a car and being told you are charged for a 1000 miles per day even if you only went 200.