Getting religion

[cowman]

Well farmers son, I can assure you I don't support a theocracy...in fact I consider most of the "Christian Right" a bunch of uninformed half wits!
That is not to say I am un-Christian or something! I have very strong beliefs...but no church dictates to me!
I don't think your comparison of Alberta senators elect is valid as compared to the American president? Although I do agree that both elected officials have a right to govern! Can you just imagine if some government body rejected the will of the American people?
Paul Martin spit in the face of every Albertan when he rejected the senatorial elections! It is an absolute shame and scandal that the media and most of the population brushed it off? Wasn't that democracy we killed?
Many times I've slammed Ralph Klein on these boards. But when the rubber hits the road, Ralph is a true Albertan and he knows what we need to stay in this country called Canada! Martin slammed the door....and few realize just what that means?
We have a duty, as patriots, to sit down and realize that this country isn't working, will never work, and throw our efforts behind the concept of a new country?

[cowman]

cowman, now much more of the Liberal corruption do you think it is going to take before the fires of western separatism get heated up ? I agree, we just seem to roll over and play dead regardless of how much sand gets kicked in our face.

[cowman]

emerald: It would seem that a lot of people couldn't care less? I mean after adscam, the total ripoff of the gun registry, the human resources scandal...can anyone doubt the whole government is totally rotten? And yet the Liberals remain right up there in the polls!
The fact is the people from some areas seem to understand that they are probably benifitting from that corrupt system? They also consider the new Conservative party too scary! I guess they have never actually read party policy on some of these "scary" positions? And of course the eastern based media is quite happy to promote these scaremongering tactics and down play all the corruption?
For the last twenty years Albertans have put their hopes in the idea that we can reform the system. We have elected representatives that have tried to promote those ideas. Again and again the voter east of the Manitoba border have rejected those ideas, even though we continued to water them down?
For a "Conservative" party to be successful we need to abandon every idea we ever had about a fairer system and embrace the centralist view that is basically the Liberal platform? So why even bother?
The day must come when we start electing a provincial government that will stand up for the reople of Alberta? I don't want to hear my premier saying stuff like "I'm a Canadian first of all"! Put some teeth into our province...just like Quebec has done?

[cowman]

I agree with your thoughts on this cowman. I think that the next leader of the Conservatives on AB. needs to have a strong vision of what direction our province needs to head in order to minimize the negative effects of what is happening federally. I have come to the conclusion that people don't care how corrupt a politician or government is as long as they get what they want from the system. In our county there was a huge mess on council, a self serving Reeve that made sure he had roads paved beside as much land of his own as possible, he charged an obscene amount for doing his job etc. In the end the provincial government ordered a complete review of the conduct of council and the review really tarred him, he was voted out in a huge majority last fall but there are still those who sing his praises !! The reason being that they got paved roads as well, because they happen to live near his property !!!! They know he was rotten to the core but as long as they benefitted from it they have no concerns with supporting his conduct !!!

Reminds me of Ontario !

[farmers_son]

Well lets see…Our federal leaders are corrupt, rotten to the core, and our municipal leaders are corrupt. Why leave out our provincial leaders? In fact lets go all the way, the voters of this country are corrupt too because everyone they vote into power is apparently corrupt. Everyone is corrupt except me and thee and sometimes I despair of thee…

The corruption word is easy to throw out to vilify any policy that you don’t like or to discredit any person or party an individual does not support. It serves a purpose in that it provides an easy answer to explain government policies and directions we do not understand or comprehend and saves us the effort required to think a little further.

Properly defined, political corruption means that government policies tend to benefit the givers of bribes, not the country. Political corruption encompasses abuses by government officials such as embezzlement and nepotism, as well as abuses linking public and private actors such as bribery, extortion, influence peddling, and fraud.

Simply disagreeing with government policy does not mean the government is corrupt. If any citizen of this country actually had evidence that corruption took place in this country it would be dealt with quickly by our legal system. I think corruption is very rare.

[silverback]

Do you actually believe some of that dribble you throw out there sometimes? Or are you just sitting there laughing as you type thinking of how a reply like that will drive others crazy?

Sometimes you make sense, but when you refuse to acknowledge the corruption in the Federal Government you lose all credibility to me.

[cakadu]

I have no qualms about agreeing that there has been corruption of some sort - how much, how deep and how far reaching we don't really know yet.

Are we to believe that it just happened when the Liberals came to power, or more specifically in the last 10 to 12 years? As Emrald has pointed out, it can happen anywhere, anytime and by anyone. Some are likely just better at hiding it than others.

Not too much has been made about the fact that those the Conservative MP illegally taped the conversations. Yes, that's right illegally because it is illegal to tape anyone without informing them of doing so. Is it alright that they taped someone because they were trying to catch Osupposedly) bad people?

It is a sad fact that there are those people that will go along to get along; will think that they are something special because they happen to be currying favor (not understanding that if it happens with them, it could happen to them too), keept taking their piece of the pie "because they deserve it" and the list goes on.

What does hurt with the Liberals is that they appear to be unbelievably brazen (or complete idiots) when it comes to taking responsibility for what they have done. A certain former public works minister comes to mind there.

The hard part for many of us is that we have difficulty comprehending how they can do it. Take for example, when a tragedy strikes, some people will go out and loot and steal - how can they do that? Most of us were brought up to believe that you don't take what isn't rightfully yours. Yet, this goes on all too often.

In your case emrald, the Reeve in your county sounds pretty bold in what he/she did. In our county, the former county manager made off like a bandit (some $3 million I believe it was) because council wasn't necessarily on the ball.

There has likely been so much go on and we don't have any idea of the depth or scope of it. What I wonder is how on earth you get it cleaned up?

[silverback]

Cakadu, with all due respect, it is not illegal to tape a conversation without consent from the other party.

There have been countless lawyers attesting to that on the radio since this came out. Maybe someone out there can tell us what would make it illegal.

That being the case, how can you be upset at the guy making the tape? Why would you not be upset at the offers being made that were recorded and undeniable - except by a Liberal??

We actually get proof of how things are being done down east and you shoot the messenger? Great

[cakadu]

I never said anything about being upset at the guy who made the tape - just pointed out that it is illegal to do so. The police with their wire taps have certain powers conferred upon them, but to my knowledge, ordinary citizens cannot tape one another without getting consent or at least advising you that you are going to be taped. For the record, I haven't heard any lawyers talking about it on the radio and/or TV.

Until we hear the tape in it's entirety and know how it was recorded, how can we be sure that we are being given a straight bill of goods? Is it really proof? I am not now, nor have I ever voted Liberal and likely never will. I am just not prepared to take it at face value, particularly what has come out in the media.

I remember being told, "believe nothing you hear, half of what you read and everything you see."

If it were enough to hang the Liberals, wouldn't logic tell you that we would be going down that path instead of it being put on the back burner?

Harper has done nothing to help himself with this bull dog mentality of "I'm gonna get them." What he has not done is explain how he will do things differently and what measures he will put in place to ensure it doesn't happen in his government under his watch. We can all point out the faults (ad nauseum)it is coming up with the solutions that is much harder.

For example, how many senior bureaucrats will need to be looked at in terms of how they have conducted themselves over the years? How much of the civil service will have to be replaced because they've ridden on the gravy train a little too often? How much of the slate will have to be wiped clean? How prepared is Harper, if he ever gets in, to houseclean? He's had enough problems within his own party - you cannot completely control other people.

[cakadu]

Linda it is never illegal to tape a conversation if you are a part of the conversation.
I think Grewal is a snake in the grass and have no qualms about saying that the Conservative Party would be well rid of him, however, the fact that the Liberals obviously were trying to woo him as they did Belinda points the finger at their inappropriate behaviour.

As for any response to your comments farmers_son, I think Silverback did an excellent job of saying what needed to be said. !!!

[farmers_son]

First, lets review some of the comments made. “…can anyone doubt the whole government is totally rotten? And yet the Liberals remain right up there in the polls!" “The fact is the people from some areas [Ontario] seem to understand that they are probably benefiting from that corrupt system?" “And of course the eastern based media is quite happy to promote these scaremongering tactics and down play all the corruption?” “I have come to the conclusion that people don't care how corrupt a politician or government is as long as they get what they want from the system.” “They know he was rotten to the core but as long as they benefited from it they have no concerns with supporting his conduct !!! Reminds me of Ontario !"

I should then explain my comments. I know a number of Federal civil servants personally. I also know some former provincial and federal politicians personally including ministers. These blanket statements and suggestions that people in Ottawa, the Liberals, our politicians and god knows who else are all corrupt is so far off the mark it is beyond words. It just is not so.

There have been 3 people charged so far in the Ad Scam affair. Chuck Guite and Jean Brault of Groupaction are both charged with six counts of fraud. Quebec advertising executive Paul Coffin is charged with 18 counts of fraud worth more than $2 million. In addition a federal lawsuit, Government of Canada vs Individuals, lists advertising firms and executives involved in the sponsorship program. Jean Brault, Paul Coffin, Jean-Charles Guite, Luc Lemay, Jacques Paradis, Claude Boulay, Gilles Andre Gosselin, Jean Lafleur among others. The Government alleges that the defendants did not carry out their obligations towards the Government of Canada in relation to sponsorship contracts and that they received sums to which they were not entitled or for which they didn't provide any value. The Government is seeking $41 million (demand may increase due to findings of ongoing investigations). That is it. That is far from everyone in Ottawa, or even just the Liberals.

Ad Scam has been public information since May 2002 when Auditor General Sheila Fraser reported federal bureaucrats broke “just about every rule in the book'' in dealings with Groupaction. Since then there has been a Federal Election and the people of this country voted still voted Liberal. That is more a condemnation and a pathetic statement about the Conservatives and Stephen Harper than it is a public acceptance of corruption in government.

I do think corruption is the exception, not the norm. I do think our people in Ottawa for the most part, not all but most, are very dedicated and moral. Those charged will be tried in court.

Broad statements to the effect that corruption is rampant in Ottawa are unfair to the majority of the people who are not.

[cakadu]

Farmers_son, over the years I have learned that you can never really know another person - no matter how well you think you do. People act out of character at one time or another and who knows what people are thinking when they make a decision. We all know lots of good and honorable people that would be unlikely to do anything remotely illegal. Just about all of us have made decisions we later regret or would think twice about in different circumstances. That isn't too say that all of Ottawa is corrupt, not by a long shot. All it takes is a few bad apples though.


Emrald, what I have a hard time getting my head around is the fact that IF the Liberals did in fact ask for the meeting to discuss the terms of these two coming over to the Liberals, then why was Belinda's defection such a horrendous shock to them, particularly her boyfriend? If memory serves me, the Grewal's were presumably in discussions at the same time or slightly prior to Belinda's meetings with Martin.

So, logic tells me that if the Grewals were as innocent as they claim they are, then why weren't these tapes made public straight away, or at the very least given to Harper so that they could do something with those tapes prior to even Belinda's defection?

The other thing is that with all the problems the Liberals are having, if this whole bribery/fraud thing were the least bit actionable, don't you think that it would be getting put into action? The fact that it is almost off the radar screen speaks volumes, doesn't it?

There has been something that hasn't rung true with that whole scenario.

Things are never as they seem.