Kyoto

[farmers_son]

Bush was quoted at the G8 Summit as saying "The Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt."

Will it wreck the Canadian economy too?

[daretodiffer]

Don't see how a plan to cut pollution will "wreck" the economy as much as burning up the finite resources in the fastest way possible will lead to an eventual wreck in the economy we now revel in.

[FarmRanger]

“Wreck” is a strong word. Compared to what our economy could be, there are some that might say it’s already wrecked. Having said that, I suspect that it will be a drag on the economy, in that it will be a transfer of wealth to other countries who either didn’t sign on, or are exempt from Kyoto emissions quotas.

The fact that we will make consuming fuel here more expensive, will not mean any less will be burned. It will just be burned elsewhere, (ironically, maybe even using our penalty money), at a cheaper price than if we had consumed it here. Why cheaper? Demand from Canada will go down all right, which should make the world price slightly less. A lower price means other big oil buyers get a better deal. Making cheaper oil for competing economies using our money doesn’t seem like the smartest thing to me. Signing onto Kyoto was a great public relations exercise, but won’t accomplish lower worldwide emissions. It will accomplish the lightening our wallets in Canada, and most especially Alberta.

Could we not have run the one tonne challenge PR exercise without the impossible to meet Kyoto standards, and the penalties that will inevitably follow?
Actually, impossible is too strong of a word, keep putting drags on the economy, and demand for oil will eventually go down enough to meet Kyoto targets. We won’t need to heat as many homes if enough of us are living under the exhaust vents at the mall.

Oh, sure, we’ll survive Kyoto, while still being considered a rich country. But here is another example of our money being spent for us against our will, and again quite stupidly in this case, I must add.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I do feel quite strongly on this issue!

[cowman]

Kyoto is not about saving the environment but about a massive money transfer from the wealthy western nations to the poorer nations?
How dumb is it to put restrictions on our industries? All it does is tell them they need to migrate to China or India! This is smart?
The Liberals are all for it as they see it as a way to rip off some more Alberta petro dollars!
In Canada we are high energy users. It is all well and good to say we need to clean up our act, but the fact is we live in an Artic country and we need to stay warm and operate where it takes a lot of energy?
The US actually has a better plan in place for energy reduction than the idiotic Kyota plan!

[cowman]

By the way...I have found quite often environmental groups are quite the little social reformers? A popular talk show host used to call them "Watermellon environmentalists"?...Green on the outside, but when you peel off the outer layer you find pure red!

[farmers_son]

Cowman is right, Kyoto is about a transfer of wealth from rich to poor. Canada is a northern country and needs to use energy for heat etc. that other countries may not.

[SW1-32-5-4]

Yous guys are correct but what kind of action are you prepared to be involved in?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman I take it you are with G.W?
When the reporter asked him for his opinion on the Kyoto accord - reply "is that the 2 door or the 4 door?"

[cowman]

grassfarmer: Yea,I have to go with George on this one. How much sense does it make to allow the heavy polluters to just go about business as usual while buying carbon credits to offset their problems? Then they dream up schemes to pay people for carbon sinks that are already there? Net result is nothing changes!
In the meantime our industries will now be strapped with an additional expense that their competitors in the undeveloped world don't have? If you were a profit driven manufacturer where would you locate?
Yea, I would say George hit it right on the head. Unfortunately our own bright lights are not in touch with reality?

[FarmRanger]

When Canada first signed onto Kyoto, I thought that even Jean Chretian can’t be that stupid. Then I thought, no, like GST, he’ll just weasel out of it, so Kyoto won’t end up hurting us. Now it looks more and more like we are going to end up getting burdened with Kyoto in the end anyway. It appears that Canada will have a Jean Chretian hangover for many years to come.

[silverback]

But they keep saying that farmers are going to be paid for their good stewardship of the land and the carbon sinks they produce. They wouldn't lie would they?

[cakadu]

We'll know that the government is serious about environmental sustainability when they start paying landowners for the environmental goods and services (EGS) that they provide. How that will transpire is anyone's guess at this point in time. If there is an Ag Policy Framework II, which I understand is currently being worked on, it will focus more on EGS.

Just how much is clean drinking water worth? What price can be put on keeping natural areas in their present, or an improved state? What is a carbon sink worth - have they come up with any actual figures yet?

Cowman, you might now a little more about this - have you any idea as to why it is the Red Deer Chamber of Commerce that is leading the push for carbon credits and payment in this area? I wouldn't necessarily have viewed them as the frontrunner, however, there could be a valid reason why they are.

What sort of middlemen do you see being created in terms of the trading in carbon credits? Will some of the value of the credits get lost in the buying and selling - just like it is the processor that makes the lions share on an animal, even though the producer does the bulk of the work.

What is the anticipated start date for carbon credits to start trading? I know 2008 was the target date, but has that changed at all?

[cowman]

Well I'm not all that up on carbon credits, but I do believe Amsterdam has a commodity market where they are trading them right now?
I suspect the chamber of commerce is all for it because it will put a lot of money into the ag sector that wouldn't be there otherwise? Farmers buy a lot of stuff in Red Deer?
However consider this: What is accomplished by trading carbon credits other than a transfer of wealth? Yea, the farmers might make a few bucks at industries expense, but in the big picture nothing will really change? The polluters will still be polluting...it will just cost them a bit more?
Now if you were a industrial polluter, in Canada, would you want to pay more if it was possible for you to relocate to China or India or who knows where?
How many countries are opting out of Kyota?
Consider this: Why would you want to build a petro chemical plant in Canada when you could build it in the USA? Why pay the carbon tax if you don't have to? And if you think the petro chemical industry isn't a benifit to Alberta then you haven't seen the money they spend at Joffre!

[cowman]

cowman, I had a tour of the Joffre facilities the other day, and you are certainly correct in the dollars spent there !
I am sure that the entire carbon credits issue will mean costs to industry passed on to consumers one way or the other.

[farmers_son]

Check out:

http://www.iowafarmbureau.com/special/carbon/default.aspx

The Carbon Credit Aggretation Pilot Project.