Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[farmers_son]

Your numbers are interesting if only because they illustrate how numbers can be twisted and distorted.

However I agree that Quebec supports their agriculture more than Alberta or Saskatchewan. In Alberta, government support is directed more towards the oil sector in the form of cheap royalties; that is a political decision. Quebec taxpayers support agriculture to an extent not seen in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I fail to see how separating from Canada will fix that problem. There is no guarantee that a separate Alberta or Saskatchewan will support agriculture any more than is seen now.

The gist of the arguments in favour of separation revolve around Alberta sending more money to Ottawa in the form of taxes then it receives back in direct transfers and benefits. To keep the debate in focus it needs to be realized that Alberta does receive benefits from the federal government. While a lot of numbers have been tossed around the best numbers I have seen suggest that Alberta perhaps contributes as much as $1.5 billion more to Ottawa than it receives back, mostly as a result of our very strong economy. It is very possible given the extent of direct and indirect federal BSE support since 2003 that Alberta has actually received more from Ottawa than Albertans and Alberta corporations paid in federal taxes. I guess it depends on which numbers you believe.

You talk about misdirection, if Ottawa is giving Alberta a raw deal doesn’t that overlook the fact that the U.S. is giving Alberta a raw deal right now too and what makes anyone think we could possibly be better off separating from Canada and becoming an U.S. state so we can really get screwed by Americans. Not to mention seeing our children sent off to get shot in Iraq to boot.

We have a pretty darn good country here with pretty darn good values for the most part.

[cowman]

farmers son: With all due respect you are diverting? On all kinds of things?
First of all:No one is sending anyone to Iraq against their will. The American army is strictly volunteer...no draft PERIOD! If you join the army of your own free will then you can expect to be a soldier and do the job?
Yes Alberta does help out the oil and gas industry. That is their bread and butter and it only makes sense? It also is VERY generous to the ag sector? Where does this AG money come from?...the oil and gas sector?
I tend to talk a lot about Alberta but in reality the border doesn't end at Lloydminister! Or Dawson BC! Maybe it doesn't even end at the Manitoba border?
The reality of this country has always been the colonies allow the center to flourish at our expense and whatever Quebec wants, Quebec gets! It gets it because it allows the "power elite" to stay in power! And that "power elite" is the golden triangle?
Consider your numbers? I have posted export figures on here that show just how much oil and gas contribute to our export numbers? The fact is that is what is paying the bills? That is what our neighbor wants and that is what they will pay for?
I suspect when the day comes when Alberta declares it will leave, you will see a war. The fact is without the resource revenue this country is bankrupt.

[farmers_son]

Cowman: It is also true that almost 50% of American voters voted against the Iraq war. And while there was interest expressed by some disenfranchised Americans in immigrating to Canada after the last U.S. election there was no talk of separation.

I would venture to say that in this day and age if you were an American and made statements to the effect that a U.S. state or states should separate from the Union there would be very, very serious consequences. We Canadians tend to take our freedoms and the peace of mind we enjoy in this country a little too lightly at times.

Obviously Quebec has been well looked after as of late. There was a time in Canadian history when such was not always the case. And other Canadians could easily look to Quebec separatists and say if threats of separation work for Quebec lets try it here in the west. However that overlooks the head offices that have left Quebec because of the threat of separation, the investment dollars that went elsewhere and the opportunities that were lost.

[cowman]

farmers son: What head offices might we lose? The energy sector? That is just about the only ones we have and quite frankly I don't think so?
50% of Americans probably don't think the war in Iraq is a good idea...without a doubt! You would have to be basically an idiot to think it was a good idea! Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots in America! At least we can agree on that? America is in the process of ruining their economy trying to bring about a situation where they can't win?
No argument here on that point.
That has nothing to do with our situation? The fact is we have a country that is basically not fair? Where one region is subject to a different set of standards than the rest? Is that tenable? Is that fair?
How come when Alberta has a windfall(oil and gas) we all have to share, but when Quebec has a windfall(hydro electricity) then keep your hands off, that is ours! Especially since a good part of it came from screwing the Newfies out of their share!
Well the fact is the Canadian reality is to hell with the hinterlands...just so long as the wealth flows to Quebec and Ontario!
The Maritimes got screwed just as bad as we did in the west...probably worse? Unfortunately they have basically decided to kiss some butt so they might get a few crumbs! It is a sad thing to see, and I sure don't want my grandchildren to be in a postion where they have to go bowing and scraping to those dogs in Ottaw/Toronto/Montreal?
One day we are all required to stand up and be a man and say ENOUGH! Either that or decide it is better to be a slave? That day is fast approaching?

[cakadu]

There have been lots of "reasons" why we need to separate and people are entitled to their opinions. What is sorely lacking, however, are viable solutions that present a decent alternative to what we already have. What hope do we have of being governed any better on our own than standing with Canada? There are times when Alberta is perceived to be throwing it's weight around because we are one of the "haves", so how would this make things better for the so-called West? Have we seen any better examples of governance from the Western Provinces to inidicate that things would improve if we did go? We send so much in royalties because we are exploiting what we have and we are also spending it as fast as we are making it too, with no forethought to future generations and the fact that they are entitled to the wealth we are enjoying as well.

I'm posting an article written by Todd Hirsch of the Canada West Foundation that puts a different perspective to this debate.

The Brandon Sun August 16, 2005
By Todd Hirsch

The word ?fight? actually appeared in the title of a recent press release from the government of Saskatchewan and that says a lot.

The issue of the day, at least for the Saskatchewan government, is the equalization program and Premier Lorne Calvert is quoted in the press release as saying: ?Treatment of Saskatchewan's
non-renewable resources continues to be a problem under equalization. It punishes
development in the energy sector and exports the financial benefits from our energy resources to other provinces??

He?s right, of course. The problems plaguing our national system of sharing between provinces ? in other words, the
equalization program ? do result in unfair treatment. Ask enough provinces, however, and the system is thought to be unfair by someone.

The equalization program was set up in the 1950s by the federal government with the laudable goal of attempting to create a system that would ensure the poorer provinces are brought up to some average level of financial resource. The idea is
that regardless of the province in which they live, all Canadians should be entitled to roughly equal levels of social services, health care and
education for roughly equal levels of taxes paid.

But as with a lot of government programs, what started out as a good idea has resulted in a national pillow fight. It?s
certainly not that the concept of sharing between provinces has soured ? in fact, Canadians in general support the idea. But what is increasingly seen as unwise is the execution of the program itself.

There are dozens of problems and
disagreements surrounding the current program. Should natural resources be included in the formula? Should provinces face clawbacks? Do payments provide a
disincentive for a have-not province to develop economically?

These issues are currently being debated before the Expert Panel on Equalization, set up by the federal government, in hearings across the country. The panel is
to present its final report to the finance minister by December.

I won?t get into the intricacies of the problems and debate here: they are too numerous to address. But three points in
particular bear mentioning:

The first point is a myth that needs to be debunked, the myth that the ?have? provinces 9usually Alberta and Ontario,
but now also Saskatchewan) pay into the equalization pot and the ?have not? provinces draw out of it. This isn?t the way it works.

In fact, provinces don?t pay into the equalization pot at all ? individuals do. All taxpayers finance the program and Ottawa dishes out cash directly to the
governments of the ?have not? provinces.

True, the Alberta and Ontario governments do not receive any payments from Ottawa. But it is just plain wrong to believe that these two provinces pay in while
the other provinces take out. It may seem like a minor point, but it is an important one to understand as it can powerfully shape the debate.

The second point is that much of the current battle over equalization stems not from the concept of sharing itself but from the numerous side deals that have been struck. This is a political problem, not an economic one.

Too often, the equalization program has become an ace card for the federal government to play in order to appease some particular province.

The equalization formula itself is not all that complex; what makes it complex are all of the side deals, exceptions,
amendments, and special concessions that have been tacked on over the years.

The final point is that there is a real danger of the equalization program becoming yet another lightning rod for
regional alienation. Alberta is already a ?have? province, Saskatchewan became one this year and if recent economic trends are any indication, British Columbia will re-join the rich provinces club soon.

That means three of the four ?have? provinces are in the West. If the system is not changed to address some of its
more glaring shortcomings ? especially around the unfair side deals ? it will become increasingly difficult for the
?have? provinces in the West to convince themselves that Confederation is a good idea.

The Expert Panel on Equalization has a huge task ahead of it. How do we take an existing program that is based on a good concept and make it workable?

How can we keep it from pitting province against province, region against region? Let us hope that the panel?s
recommendations are bold and ? more importantly ? that the federal government follows through with some changes.

[cakadu]

Jack Layton was in Edmonton today spouting off that its only fair for Alberta to share its wealth. If Martin keeps his word ( for once ) and doesn't try another NEP grab on AB., then we can thank the man upstairs that the NDP aren't in office !!!!! Comments like Laytons are what pit province against province Linda, and it is non productive. The NWT and Yukon have no autonomy over their natural resources which is dead wrong. They could do wonders for their people if they had some resource revenue to build roads, create jobs etc.

[farmers_son]

Cakadu, thanks for the good post and Grassfarmer too in an earlier post.

Cowman: You might be interested in this site which breaks down the head offices of Canada’s 800 largest corporations by province. On a per capita basis Alberta has more head offices than any other province. On an actual number basis Alberta is third behind Ontario who is first and Quebec a distant second. Some people think of head offices as where the buck stops. It is probably more accurate to think of head offices as where the decisions are made.

See: http://www.bcbc.com/archive/Corporate%20Head%20Offices%20Jan%202005.pdf

Just to clarify a point, there is corporate money circulating in the economy and tax money going to Ottawa and back and forth to the provinces that have both been mentioned in this thread. They are two different things.

I have heard my father say much the same thing as you about our wealth all going east. I myself would wonder about how much of our wealth goes south. However I think we need to consider that wealth does not sit idle in the economy, it is constantly on the move not sitting in a sock somewhere. Money moves east and south and probably comes back again. Alberta is the strongest economy in Canada right now and given the price of oil it is no wonder.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, "One day we are all required to stand up and be a man and say ENOUGH! Either that or decide it is better to be a slave?"
So you'll fight Central Canada for your freedom but you won't do anything against the bigger and more immediate threat of becoming an American slave? Strange thinking.

[cowman]

Well first of all if being paid very well for a product is being a slave then I have no problem there? Giving away wealth created in this province in the form of taxation for nothing but abuse...I have a problem with?
If the "firewalls" suggested were in place Alberta would collect all taxes in Alberta and send Ottawa what they saw as fair. The "gasoline tax" would be a good example? Designed to build and maintain the infrastructure? Let the tax collected on the road tax go to build and maintain the roads in Alberta?
Let Quebec and PEI pay for their bridges and roads out of their own share of the road tax? Don't take the $1 billion from Alberta and pave all the roads in Quebec while we pound it out on the potholes!
If my family is poor because we don't get out and hustle does that mean we should have all the goodies of the guy busting his butt down the road? That is basically not a good thing because it kills incentive and a good work ethic?
Works the same with regions? Why should the Quebec government get its house in order as long as someone else is picking up the tab? And then to top it off by whining for some more! We have a situation where the Quebec citizen gets more from this "welfare" than the ones paying for it! Do you think that is fair? Is that a good sustainable system?

[FarmRanger]

Nice choice grassfarmer, put up with the status quo, or be an American slave. Somehow, I think we aren’t that limited in our choices.

We can talk all we want about money moving here there and everywhere, but the fact still remains that when our TAX money goes into the sinkhole in Ottawa, precious little ever returns. It is taxed away from hard working Canadians, and spent in dubious ways by corrupt and power hungry Liberals who’ve been in office far too long. Their contempt for the taxpayer is deplorable, resulting in Adscams, and election vote buying becoming an industry funded by us, the taxpayers.

[farmers_son]

Although today we are fortunate to have Canada’s strongest economy most people forget that Alberta received equalization payments from 1957 to 1964. In fact Alberta was among the first provinces to receive equalization payments in Canada. Interestingly enough the idea for equalization came from an American economist James Buchanan who became the United States 15th President. Buchanan developed the concept after watching the United States break out in civil war between the North and South.

I would point out that Alberta’s wealth did not come because Albertans are harder workers than people in Newfoundland or even that our government managed things better here. Our wealth came because of the BNA act enacted March 29, 1867 which gave provinces jurisdiction over Non-Renewable Natural Resources, Forestry Resources and Electrical Energy.

We must remember that provinces do not pay taxes to Ottawa. Canadian citizens and corporations in the country pay taxes to Ottawa who then distribute those dollars throughout the country. Canadian citizens and corporations too are free to move and reside anywhere in the country they wish. If anyone thinks Alberta is getting such a rotten deal from Confederation they can move to another province if they so desire and reap the benefits of Ottawa’s largess directly. However when we see the building booms in Calgary and Edmonton and along the #2 corridor it would seem as if the opposite is happening and Canadians are moving to Alberta in record numbers. The gist of the argument for separation cannot then be that things are not good in Alberta rather if the west separated things would be even better. That argument could look very hollow once the oil runs out.

[farmers_son]

We keep hearing about the doom and gloom when the oil runs out. Interestingly enough when I was first elected to municipal council we heard that we needed to pave all the road when the oil industry was still paying a huge chunk of the taxes. I never agreed with that line of thinking but over the years certain factions of council in their wisdom commenced paving local roads in a random ad hoc manner ( past their own property mainly ) and royally ticked off the oil industry because they could not move about to do their business. I don't think we have to be overly concerned with the prospect of oil being depleted to nothing. The potential of the tar sands hasn't even been tapped, new technology is being developed daily to get production out of shut in wells all across the province and new exploration is happening daily.
Scare mongering about what is going to happen when Alberta is out of oil is just a red herring as far as I am concerned.